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  2/12/2015

I type that into the CAOS command then? Just want to make sure so I don't screw anything up.
 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  2/12/2015

If you install Magic Words Room Edits, you can use the rtype option to show the room type in any given part of a metaroom. Very useful.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/12/2015

yeah type that into the caos command and it will tell you the room type under the hand, it won't hurt anything it just displays a number in the caos window.

outv value = output numeric value
rtyp roomid = returns numeric type of room for given room id
grap x y = get room id at position x,y
mopx, mopy = x,y coordinates of pointer

So 'outv rtyp grap mopx mopy' outputs the room type of the roomid at the position of the pointer. I'd hold down enter while moving the hand around... that will keep repeating the command, you'll see the number change as you move into different room types.

Magic Words Room Edits gives you a nicer way to look for sure... This is just the quick and dirty CAOS command-line way.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande
United States  

 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  2/12/2015  1

FWIW, "outv rtyp room pntr" does the same thing; outputs the room type underneath the pointer. :P


 
Dark

Dark



  2/12/2015

Where is this value supposed to be showing up because I used both Ghosthande's code and evolnemesis's and I don't see a result either in the CAOS window or at the hand's pointer.

I also tried Magic Words and installed the Core and Edits file into my docking station folder but that doesn't seem to be working either. I'm sure I did something wrong. :P

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  2/12/2015

In theory, instead of the normal "OK" the CAOS console should spit out a random number.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/12/2015  2

This latest batch breeds much better... libido lowerer is a good hormone to tweak to get different effects, raising its halflife is definitely on the right track... I'm leaving it somewhere in between the normal value and the value in fred & ethyl, and I'm noticing with females its behaving almost perfectly now, they keep good amount of it until their estrogen starts decreasing, it's a little more like the slightly more finicky cycles in C1 and C2 creatures instead of being fertile practically all the time. These still breed very well, the 6 i started with doubled their population in their first hour and a half. They don't seem to get in the mood as much, but when they do they don't waste time.

I think I can go back to putting the genes in the hardmen. I have a good idea where this halflife should be now.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

I thought of another possible explanation for the fear you saw... I had one norn freak out in one of my worlds, and keep getting fear for a while, but it seems it had muscle toxin... that would cause them to freak out because it makes a lot of extra lactate while it is being broken down, any poisoning that would adversely affect their oxygen like cyanide or belladonna can have fear as side effects in them too for the same reason (feeling of suffocation).

My norn just kept freaking out for several minutes, I watched him in isolation, and then he was just better after I fumigated him. I think he may have had a bacteria pumping in muscle toxin... that would make extra lactate and make him have a feeling like he is having a hard time breathing, among other things, and make him freak out.

EDIT: The x-ray confirmed it, his muscles were quite low, they showed unusual damage that could only have been caused by something making lactate build up and stay built up in him. Check any norns you see acting scared for any muscle damage and/or lactate in their systems. Compare their muscle health with other norns.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dark

Dark



  2/13/2015

I monitor them all on the x-ray to make sure no one has any funky genetics that make an organ or two decay super fast. I didn't notice anything unusual on these guys, though.

And they're in a bacteria free world too. I've been just breeding in the ones who behave normally and so far I"ve had no issues with their offspring.

At this point, I have successfully bred out the flight response and most of the fear in the CFFs. Some norns get angry or afraid when by a grendel but their response is always to hit. Most of them are perfectly happy and will even claim they 'like grendel' while they slap him to death. :P

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

Okay, cool... still, look at anyone you see freaking out in the future if you see any (with no bacteria it shouldn't happen unless they have bad lungs or something)... see if their muscles seem low... I think I've figured it out though, muscle toxin unfortunately is not that uncommon, there's also fear toxin, and this guy who was freaking out was instantly fine once I got that bacteria off him.

As for the saying of like, Grendels are similar... they actually get decrease in loneliness from being around norns (none for their own genus), and also tend to like the norns they hang around and hit because they get a positive feeling from interacting with them, hitting them, and just approaching them, so much that grendel brains have a rule removed that normally restricts a creature from hitting things it likes. (Grendels even like being hit by norns more than they like being tickled by them). The anger they get when around norns to encourage them to hit is very gradual, from norn smell, and they don't learn to actually dislike norns from it...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

Update: Working with the Hardmans... I think these are about ready to put out a test version.

These have some issues with breeding on their own. I'm sure now it's different from Fred & Ethyl's problem (which is fixed in these guys and my latest chichis)... This is not for lack of hormones or drives or anything I did with inhibin or libido lowerer... These are fully fertile as far as I can tell... This seems to be a problem they already had: Hardmans often tend to have a lot of anger that can overwhelm their sex drive.. (plus they are a little antisocial in general with other norns... when lonely, they don't have instincts to seek each other out, but instead to look for grendels to hit).

They do eat fine though unlike base hardmans, don't seem to get stuck, still push on each other when feeling friendly, and I see good normal hormone levels, sex drive, and arousal potential, some of them even like each other a lot or love each other despite often being rough with each other. Some calm balm or just petting them for a while with the hand should get them in the mood to breed.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  2/13/2015

I'm glad to hear the inhibin level got figured out. I don't mind something closer to C1 levels of finicky, that's more realistic to me. That way the population has enough to lose a couple in a less then ideal situation without collapse, but on the other hand it's not like "these norns aren't dying in this food poor environment because they're learned to breed faster then they starve!" (this happens too often with my experiments with seasonal garden box runs).

As for grendels really loving to hit norns then pushing each other, I can confirm. I changed all my grendel breeds to have very little reward for hitting, got rid of anger from norn smell, and to get loneliness decrease from approaching each other, and I had an interesting side effect of both that they're complete pansies but also that they breed way too well with each other once they're not obsessed with approaching norns. Like, rabbits. (also removed crowdedness in jungle/anger in banshee from stimuli heard creature speak and instinct to hit when crowded/angry) Would really love inhibin implementation for this problem and the replacement of the rule in their brains to not hit things they like? This would help with some of the things I came up with to help break up a slapping fest, like making them terrified after being hit, and to run away when terrified, which while it solved my problem made them terribly ungrendel like.

I'd like to simply make them more peaceful then fragile little flowers. You know, except for the pig grendels. It's kind of fitting for them.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

Yeah, grendel reproductive systems don't even have the few restrictions norn ones do... they are like always on in the normal genome, and they didn't have inhibin like norns did... I guess it has to be like that considering how hard it is to get them to push each other normally.

The rule in their brains is in a brain tract gene labeled in the genetics editor as 'forf->comb - bad action inhibitor' It is brain tract 20 (around gene number 809, gene number is slightly different in different genomes, but it always has the gene id brain tract 20)...

It's in the state update rule... Basically, it first checks if the creature is a grendel, and if not, it inhibits all decisions to hit based on the friend or foe lobe (desire to hit is lowered based on how much the creature likes whatever it's looking at).

Changing this rule could go a long way towards making them more peaceful without necessarily making them wimps... Also, look into using reflexes... These are the 'reaction' and 'intensity' fields you see in stimulus genes... These reflex reactions can function like auxiliary instincts. Instead of just manipulating drives or other chemicals, the creature can also get a suggestion to perform the action you put here after they get the stimulus... the strength of the suggestion is determined by the intensity slider.

So, instead of making them terrified when hit, you can just add a reflex to retreat. This could get them to do what you want without affecting their behavior as drastically as a big dose of fear will.

I will be working with grendel genomes soon... These hardmans are giving me some insight into a few of the difficulties though, expecially if you want to keep their personalities recognizable.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  2/13/2015

Thank you for the tips, I will definitely try to see what I can do with this new information. It's giving me some good ideas to work at this again, such as what you've said makes me think it might be easier to reduce the intensity of some of the suggestions they're already getting, so maybe not eliminating their hitting but perhaps greatly reduce it in combination with new suggestions of equal intensity. That'd also help I think with how currently the ones I made can't even coexist with normal norns, who have an instinct to hit the grendels, and then the wimpy grendels don't know what to do and end up getting killed by even the tiniest baby chi chi with a bad temper.

I'm working with the friendly banshees by grendel_man, and they seem to strike a nice balance of still being grendel-ish, but they still kill norns regularly. I think, if memory serves, their genome still includes some of those stimuli which made me a little bit wary to leave them with a group alone. I think part of the problem of course was the angry when they heard creature speak stimuli, as that drives any banshee crazy when they all start looping (I think their expressed needs stimuli wasn't anywhere close to counteracting 10 norns speaking in unison). I think it's also going to take a lot of play testing I fear and subtle tweaking.

Best of luck to your similar problem with the hardmans. They are an interesting concept but I've been unable to keep them myself unedited. That constant running back and forth to give them calm balm and then telling them to drink it drove me bananas. I even set up a vendor to constantly vend and gave them instincts to drink potion when angry, and they were still sitting there all ticked off, and I thought "geez, this is way too much work." And then I think I made it even worse by giving them instinct to express self and decreased crowdedness when expressing needs, which made them loop more often, which made the others infinitely more crowded then if they had just kept quiet. I don't think they're very hardman at all now, just hardier immune systems then average norns in my worlds who can take a beating.

Edit: I'm using genelab, so is what you're talking about kind of like, in the norn, the two instincts for 462 and 463 shout and swear when angry vs hit grendels if angry where the slider for hit grendels if angry is at -124 reward and the shout and swear is -25? The norn is more likely to hit grendels if angry when given the option because it's got a much higher rate of reward, right? So I could take that down to -25 for hit grendels, and that would make a norn equally likely to shout and swear as to hit a grendel? Forgoing, for the moment, the complications of stimulus and learning.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

Another suggestion... Norns lose a pretty good amount of anger when tickled by other creatures (they gain a little crowdedness though, but this isn't associated with grendels in most genomes.. if anything the norn will probably go take it out on other norns)...

See what happens if you give your grendels a reflex to 'activate1 it' if they get hit... Have them suck up a little by having an urge to try and calm down their attacker. This way you can still leave their tendency to fight if they get angry enough, but hopefully they can deflate their attackers anger before things get to this point by being nice. Maybe this will even help get the enemy to stop hitting and off their guard before the Grendel's anger builds up enough to start their own attack.

Note: this won't work so well with other Grendels, it might make them madder and escalate the fight, since they don't like being patted by other creatures generally... but if norns are your problem, this makes sense to have...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  2/13/2015

That's a really good idea. Hopefully between all of that slight tweaking (a new push instinct, getting rid of forf gene, and adjusting the sliders) they'll come out a little bit more stable. I'll probably post any progress on that on a separate thread though, I've eaten up a lot of space on this page, thank you for explaining as much as you did. This deeper understanding of the instinct genes will make my edits a lot less ham-handed. I look forward to your updates, you've done some really amazing work.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

CeruleanSilver wrote:


Edit: I'm using genelab, so is what you're talking about kind of like, in the norn, the two instincts for 462 and 463 shout and swear when angry vs hit grendels if angry where the slider for hit grendels if angry is at -124 reward and the shout and swear is -25? The norn is more likely to hit grendels if angry when given the option because it's got a much higher rate of reward, right? So I could take that down to -25 for hit grendels, and that would make a norn equally likely to shout and swear as to hit a grendel? Forgoing, for the moment, the complications of stimulus and learning.



Pretty much. With no prior experience or learning, when they get angry and a grendel is in sight, and the instincts promise the same drop in drives, then they will have about equal chance of deciding to yell or go hit the grendel.

In practice, if you set these instincts at the same strength, unless you trained them with the dummy at youth, it is very likely they will have expressed a few times and learned that it lowers anger before they ever saw their first grendel, so they will probably have a better idea from learning that yelling really works than they will have about hitting grendels, so most with this setup will probably develop a tendency to yell no matter what.

Having full-strength instincts and lower strength 'backup' instincts is a good technique for setting realistic behaviors or setting up a chain of actions, ones that are set at the same strength will tend to be used by the creature based on which one it learned more, ones that are weaker will tend to not be used if the stronger one is available.

For example, the base genome has a 'hunger for fat' instinct to eat food, and another at the same strength to eat seeds... so they will pick pretty much randomly at first, If there was nothing but seeds around when they got hungry for fat, or seeds are closer, so they had to choose seed, they would start to associate seeds more with lowering fat hunger, and be likely to choose them over food if both are available... and vice-versa... if they noticed food lowering their fat first, they will probably start to prefer food for fat hunger over seeds.

There's also a half-strength instinct to push a dispenser if hungry for fat... this one will tend to be ignored if the creature senses food or seeds around, since the instinct is much weaker in the first place and it doesn't get reinforced by learning (just pushing the dispenser doesn't actually lower their hunger), but if neither of those things are around, then it will at least have an idea that pushing a dispenser might help their hunger. Then once the food comes out, they will go for the food since they've learned it's better than pushing the dispenser.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/13/2015

Turns out the breeding problem with my test Hardmen was an improperly copied gene... went over genecompares with fine-toothed comb... I think these are ready! They are breeding decently, but not like crazy, they are very tough and aggressive to Grendels and yet take care of themselves other than EE, which still can affect them in empty areas like everyone else... they don't get stuck with high drives though... no more starving to death while stamping one foot complaining of being angry (though they might still complain for a little while if they have no outlet like balm or grendels to hit...), they are good at doing stuff about their needs now though, and deal with their drives MUCH better than the base Hardmen. Oh, and the ability to say 'no' came in handy with these guys... 4 of them were having a big smackfight and i just came up with the hand and said NO, and they all looked up with a little look of fright and scattered to do other stuff... like, "we weren't fighting! Honest!..." It was SO much quicker and easier than trying to accurately smack all of them while they were milling around like that.

Gonna have one big drinking party with this test group to test the alcohol reactions in them and to let them celebrate themselves as the first fully working CFF Hardmen, and then I will release a set of test babies along with the 2 genome files. In a couple of days I'll have treehuggers too.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/14/2015

Found one of the new lonely type drunks among this batch of hardmen... Unfortunately for him, he was also the only Norn who had decided to live and stay alone in the Norn terrarium, apart from all of the rest who were living in the jungle. So he just sat around shooting off the rocket toy talking about how lonely he was until he fell asleep.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
ThunderOrb

ThunderOrb
United States  


  2/14/2015

Are there glycotoxins found naturally in an undocked ds world? I spliced your evo norns with some ettins and started getting a bunch of "norns" complaining they were extremely hungry for starch over and over, but they wouldn't eat seeds. A quick check by the hoverdoc showed that each one complaining about starch had high levels of glycotoxin. Not sure if it was something they were picking up in the meso or some sort of warped mutation.

Remember that one time? Yeah, you do. You totally do.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/14/2015

Odd, I've not seen this, but I haven't tried splicing them with ettins (still there is no reason I can think of that they should be any more incompatible with ettins than any other norn)...

As far as I can tell, glycotoxin only normally appears in an undocked DS world from creatures eating detritus (there is plenty around in the meso from rotting food, a lot from tubas especially, but ettins and norns other than toxics typically ignore it). My money is on some kind of mutation... either they make the toxin in their bodies, or possibly one of their eating instincts mutated to tell them that eating detritus is a good idea, or maybe they are just very stupid and ate garbage randomly. I think the Peaking Pies (the pink food cakes) from the Empathic vendor have a cure for it (Arnica).


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
ThunderOrb

ThunderOrb
United States  


  2/14/2015

Yep, they do, but it's nearly impossible to get those creatures to eat it. Even locking them in the sick bay and telling them to eat food over and over rarely results in one eating it. Nine times out of ten, the toxin will build up until they die. All they do is complain about being hungry for starch over and over even though they aren't actually needing it.

Now in a world with Lucy and Ricky, I've so far gotten three children from them. The first, a son, came out constantly afraid until he was about 20 minutes old. He would stand in one spot and say he was scared over and over. Wouldn't sleep. Wouldn't eat. Then it just... went away. The second, another son, came out normal. The third, a daughter, sneezes all of the time even though no toxin or bacteria have been detected in her body and all of her drives are low. Strange stuff!

On an unrelated note, could you add a higher desire to explore to your genome? Wolfling runs get so frustrating because even if I try to put norns all over the ship and in added metarooms, they all eventually end up back in the meso and just go into breeding frenzies in a giant pile. If anyone does get the itch to explore, they typically won't see another creature for the rest of their lives. It gets depressing. :-(


Remember that one time? Yeah, you do. You totally do.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/14/2015

Fear toxin might last a while.. that also could do something like that... but yeah, mutations can do some weird stuff... If you like, message me and I'll give you my email so you can send me some creature files and I can have a look at their genetics and see what might have happened with them with a gene compare.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
ThunderOrb

ThunderOrb
United States  


  2/14/2015

Well, I kept the hoverdoc on the fearful norn and the amount of fear he had changed pretty frequently, but never dropped below half full. It would change more rapidly while he was by his mother - like being near her DID provide comfort, but not quite enough. The cuddly tree would lower it completely, but it would come back as soon as he walked away to eat or play with another toy.

When he hit about 20 minutes, it went down and stayed down and he has been pretty normal since.


Remember that one time? Yeah, you do. You totally do.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/14/2015

hmm yeah seems like a mutation somewhere to me... a pretty weird one too... not sure what to make of it. Sounds like something is generating fear in him as a side-effect of some reaction that goes on all the time in his body.. not sure about why it would lower when he got by his mom either... they have an INSTINCT that going towards their parents reduces fear, but it really doesn't, it's just there to make babies want to be by their parents... being tickled or patted by another creature does remove it, but i'm not sure of other reactions with norns that might reduce fear. This parental instinct gets overridden at adolescence by a stronger one that tells them that going towards their parents increases crowdedness. I'd really love to look at him.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  2/15/2015

ThunderOrb wrote:
Are there glycotoxins found naturally in an undocked ds world? I spliced your evo norns with some ettins and started getting a bunch of "norns" complaining they were extremely hungry for starch over and over, but they wouldn't eat seeds. A quick check by the hoverdoc showed that each one complaining about starch had high levels of glycotoxin. Not sure if it was something they were picking up in the meso or some sort of warped mutation.



According to Amaikokonut's toxin guide, it's good to feed your glycotoxined norns starchy foods, because the starch reacts with the glycotoxin, making sure it can't damage the organ.

Could it be that the fullness lobe is inhibiting their ability to fuel up when sick?


My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/15/2015

Possibly, though hunger would have to be pretty low for the fullness lobe to be affecting anything... It only starts restricting desire to eat when the TOTAL of all 3 hunger drives is below about .59, and then only by an amount related to how far below that threshold the total hunger is. And I've found that norns can still eat well even with their desire to eat suppressed by as much as half.

If these are complaining about hunger for starch, their hunger for starch just by itself has to be approaching that threshold, and the combination of it and all other hungers should be over it. It's also set not to mutate, like all other brain lobes and tracts.



"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/15/2015

I have a sneaking suspicion that is not good... looking into it.

From some looking at mutations in genomes, I think it is very possible that a gene causing a lactate buildup may be the one of the most, if not THE most, common possible types of mutation... not good for creatures that can feel the muscle burn from it and feel a burning in their lungs like they are suffocating when there is a lot of it.

It DOES explain why muscle death was so common in creatures without CFF genomes though... with no lactate cycle or way to get rid of lactate, any norn with a mutation of this type would just have their muscles die from the burn. I thought they were all just getting muscle toxin from some bacteria, because that turns into lactate so it can cause the muscle damage and then the lactate would never leave, but now it is looking like the lactate just came from inside them as a result of how mutations work...

See, there seems to be a tendency for mutations to just change a value in a gene by 1... half-life from 40 to 41, a locus it attaches to from locus 2 to locus 3, a lobe it looks at from lobe 8 to lobe 7, etc.. especially if there is no radiation or anything affecting their degree of mutation. Now, "<nothing>" in any gene mentioning chemicals has 0 for its chemical number... Lactate is Chemical number 1... so any gene that has a <nothing> in it seems to have a good chance for that <nothing> to become Lactate if the gene mutates. <Nothing> (0) is the most common chemical number used in the genome by far, even appearing multiple times in most chemical reaction genes.

So, it looks like Lactate may well be the most common chemical that will crop up in mutations. This could explain the prevalence of fearful norns or weird mutations involving fear in CFFs (lactate being made by the body faster than it can be broken down). It makes sense to leave the lactate cycle in, since this helps them break it down, and will still work to save their muscles if the mutated gene isn't making lactate too quickly (and the lactate-pyruvate cycle was there in C2...), but I might have to re-evaluate how my drowning response is triggered, and figure out another way to get it to work properly.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dark

Dark



  2/15/2015

Maybe that's why I was seeing the fear issue? I kept an eye on their organs and the only time anything fishy happened was one time when Ethyl became an adult and either her immune or muscles (I wish I could remember which) hit 00.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/15/2015  2

Yeah, the only way something is triggering their drowning response (and the fear that comes from it) is if something is making lot of lactate (and making it pretty quickly, because they normally break it down very quickly and turn it into pyruvate)...

Lactate buildup causes muscle burn slowly, it would kill the muscles after a while if there is enough staying in their bodies to be triggering the drowning response. There has to be a decent amount in their bodies for them to be feeling like they are suffocating though... if you saw early muscle death in a norn that was scared constantly, like fear maxed out all the way, then that would be a likely explanation.

It's also possible for a mutated norn to just get little jolts of it from some reaction and then it breaks down quickly, like maybe after eating, or when getting some other chemical, really any time, there are a lot of chemical reactions going on in them and a lot of weird things that could be reacting to make it... then they probably could get some fear escalation either regularly every now and then with some natural process (maybe when they pee, for example), or related to some action or stimulus, without much muscle damage at all..

I really have to look at more genomes to see, but I think it's a definite possibility, that chemical number that triggers their drowning fear happening to be 1 and also seeing a lot of mutations involving fear in only a small sample of these norns is a too big of a coincidence to ignore. Send me any creature files or genome files from any creatures with odd fear reactions if you can, my email address is evolnemesis@gmail.com and if you have the X-Ray, keep an eye out for lactate (Chemical 1), you should really never see it. If you see them getting big spikes of it, or it building up, then there is a problem.

If you send them, Genome files are preferable so i can just run a gene-compare... If your creature is in the world, you can look at its birth information to get its genome moniker, and then you can get its genome file with the matching name that is in your 'My Worlds/<your world name>/Genetics' folder. If not, I can use the creature files too.. I'll just have to import them to get their genome.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/15/2015

ThunderOrb wrote:

On an unrelated note, could you add a higher desire to explore to your genome? Wolfling runs get so frustrating because even if I try to put norns all over the ship and in added metarooms, they all eventually end up back in the meso and just go into breeding frenzies in a giant pile. If anyone does get the itch to explore, they typically won't see another creature for the rest of their lives. It gets depressing. :-(



I've always thought that too, and I have been trying to work on the genome to make them want to explore more, and it's tough... these guys already enjoy walking almost twice as much as other norns, find it much less tiring, and find just hanging around with other norns or hearing other norns talk to be much less interesting than normal ones do, get lonely slower, and they even have an aversion to hanging around their parents.

I have found these do clump less than other norns and do occasionally go wander around (though they are still typically alone after that if they do). Most make it to the bridge, look around, mess with stuff and go back, occasionally one goes to the meso from the terrarium or vice versa, The hardmen will mostly all find their way to the jungle from the meso, but they tend to stay in the jungle after that... I had one or two that liked hanging out in the meso, and one that decided to go live by the cemetery and carrot patch in the norn terrarium...

I've went so far in some tests as to turn off loneliness generation, double the crowding they get from anything, and to make them get bored whenever they are next to or look at other norns... This just makes them mill around a lot barely looking at each other, they still tend to stay in little sort of clumps though... it's frustrating. Their brains are lazy is the real problem, they look for the most efficient solution to everything, which leads them to tend to just stick around any area where they find they have everything they need close by. If they DO get to thinking that walking fulfills any needs better than other things, then they will just decide to walk back and forth constantly around whatever fulfills their other needs.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
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  2/15/2015

Do CFF norns get bored and lonely more easily or is that something I managed to breed in?
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/15/2015

They shouldn't noticeably, unless there are mutations... genes do mutate a lot. They have loneliness toned down in the pure genome actually, and they know about several more ways to get rid of boredom usually, I rarely see them get bored enough to complain about it at all.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dark

Dark



  2/15/2015

Sounds like mutations then. I have a couple that complain of being lonely pretty often. A lot seem to have their boredom drive go up really fast but they generally seem pretty good at getting it back down.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  2/15/2015

I just put up some New Grendels... If you think your norns are up to it, you can test them out on these (careful, these make the Banshee Grendels look like happy kindergarteners.. they are just as tough and possibly even more aggressive than Hardmen, I made them to give my Hardmen a real challenge).

They have a highly modified and grendelified version of the CFF 0.6 Hardman Norn genome, and even come with their own Creatures canon back-story!


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 

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