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 Code Monkey evolnemesis  |
I think I have a solution for the drowning reaction apparently getting triggered by common mutations (lactate seems to appear very commonly in mutations, more so than any other chemical, thanks to it being chemical number 1)... The lactate oxidation reaction will stay (because it is necessary to save their muscles, even more necessary than I originally thought, because lactate seems to appear commonly in any creature from mutations), but instead of the creature's fear and drowning response getting triggered by lactate, it will get triggered by either a new chemical that is less likely to appear in mutations but works the way lactate should in regards to their oxygen level, or a new receptor locus that will only fire when the air is not breathable AND they have low oxygen. Using a new chemical rather than the air quality locus I think is preferable, since, like the current reaction using blood oxygen level and lactate, these genes won't have to be altered to work for aquatic or amphibious creatures. It should also be pretty simple to change the current genome to accommodate it since it just involves changing a chemical number in some genes. I especially think it makes sense to fix the drowning response this way since the problem really does seem to be just related to the chemical number of one of the chemicals involved, and not with any systemic problem with the response itself. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Using Chemical Number 61, calling it Lactic Acid. Basically it replaces and deprecates the use of the normal lactate chemical, in their metabolism and drowning response, even for muscle burn. This still gives muscle protection from lactate chemical, even if these traits are only partially inherited. It makes the common mutation from '<Nothing>' to 'Lactate' in Creatures genetics no longer a problem, and should make any things like muscle death or weird drowning reactions much less likely to crop up in any creature that inherits any of the CFF genes. I've been thinking of various combinations of the new genes regarding lactic acid with the two normal genes regarding lactate (one causes muscle burn, and one reacts muscle toxin into it), and possible mutations of both the normal and CFF drowning reaction, and this method should not cause any extra problems when crossbreeding with non CFF but it should GREATLY decrease the possibility of any complications with lactate due to mutations or missing genes. The only possible complication with crossbreeding with normals is the same possibility CFF already have, of keeping the normal base genome's drowning involuntary action trigger which is based on lung air level and not lactic acid buildup from low oxygen. If they do get this old normal gene but also get the CFF gene for fear of drowning, then this may some cause fear for a few minutes when they are very young, and for a few extra minutes after any suffocation event. There is really no way around this issue that I can see if we want them to notice drowning. The base genomes' way of detecting drowning was flawed, so if you give them a gene for fear of drowning, and they don't also inherit the gene to detect drowning correctly, then they will get the fear reaction based on their old slightly overactive flawed drowning detector. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
CFF 0.7 is out on a new CFF conversion of the Treehuggers. The changes in this version are: - A small tweak to their drowning response to make it just a little bit less sensitive, this helps avoid any possibility that they will get any twinges of fear from normal fluctuations in their oxygen level or small metabolic mutations. - Lactate's function in their genome has been replaced with a chemical I call 'Lactic Acid' and uses chemical slot 61. This is plausible, as lactate in real animals really only builds up in the form of lactic acid, and lactic acid is what is really responsible for the burning sensation... The reason for the second change is to avoid the fact that anywhere '<nothing>' is mentioned in any gene involving a chemical, it is likely to mutate into Lactate, because <nothing> is chemical 0 and lactate is chemical 1... Since there is a reference to '<nothing>' all over the base genomes, typically appearing 2 or 3 times in any chemical reaction gene, this will potentially cause buildup of lactate and either muscle death or false drowning reactions VERY commonly. This accounts for the common prevalence of early muscle death among pre-CFF creatures who had no way to get rid of lactate. It was not just muscle toxin most of the time after all, lactate just turns out to crop up incredibly commonly in mutations. I feel the best solution, since lactate is broken in the default genomes anyway, is just to deprecate its use in the CFFs and replace its functions using another chemical number. This chemical replacement is engineered in such a way that inheriting any one of several genes will still serve the function of protecting a creature's muscles from the normal lactate chemical... Also, the buildup of this new chemical 'Lactic Acid' should not occur in any crossbreeds without either being entirely harmless to the creature, or else allowing the creature to get rid of it naturally through the lactate-pyruvate cycle. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Malkin Manager  |
I'm really enjoying John and Yoko and their family.  What kinds of population densities have you tested them at? Six seems a pretty comfy amount (in Veridia) for me. I love how cute the Soothing Herbal Tea is, although I'm still training my norns to drink it. Do the CFF use Vitamin E in any particular way? From Chris Double's analysis of the Civet genome, it doesn't look like regular C3 norns use it. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Not sure, I thought it did something with the reproductive system traditionally, I'll have to look... If it's not there, I'll look in some C1 and C2 genomes and see what it's supposed to do (I think just something like slowing injury rate on the gonads). I was testing 8 at once in the meso, I figured that would be enough to see if crowding started to be an issue, since they were all at the bottom... It didn't seem too bad, they were getting rid of some crowding and a lot of boredom by playing with bugs and plants, backing off each other every now and then, and occasionally playing with the tree or one of my plushies or a stinger. I really didn't see them complaining of crowding though, they pretty much ranged between bored and happy, there was no fighting to speak of, and none of them got distressed enough to go for the random teleporter I put in there. One of my dark banshees had hatched from the grendel mother and was waiting grumpily outside the locked door to the meso, occasionally going back the the bridge and pushing a dispenser for cheese and then going right back to the door. He REALLY wanted to meet my Treehuggers... I gave him an Astro Norn plushie to play with instead. For me with the tea, I hatched a couple, and they were hanging around one area kind of playing with a toy but they seemed to be getting tired of each other and started moving apart and looking irritated, so I told them both to 'eat potion', they did, and then they gulped down the other cups, and then they were hanging out around the pot, hogging it down almost as fast as it made it... I had to click it to make an extra batch just so I could take a picture of the cups, because they drank a whole batch just while I was getting the norn camera thing ready. Those are the two norns in the download picture. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Pretty much leaving them alone now to see how they act with the tea now that they are a bit older and they know about more stuff, I definitely see a few that go for a cup of tea every now and then... One male in particular likes it a lot and always takes a cup or two when he's around the teapot, he likes to dance around holding a teacup, I have to get a screenshot, it's so funny... but the others occasionally will take a cup too. Right now I have 5 or 6 in the meso, and they are doing quite well. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Malkin wrote: You are right, I checked and C3 creatures do not use it. CFF 0.6 and above do let it decay and leave their bodies eventually though... slowly like they decay vitamin C (20 minute half-life)... if given a maximum dose it will take about a season for all of it to leave their bodies. Looking at other genomes, it seems I was right about its function though, it is supposed to be linked to repair rate of the gonads, also the uterus. It would just require one extra chemical receptor gene inside each of these organs to fix this. It won't have too noticeable effect, it won't make the organ live longer in normal circumstances, but it will make those organs a little more resilient against injury by antigens or radiation or whatever else can hurt them if they take vitamin E. I must have looked at it before... I think I was scared to make those changes because this would shift the gene numbers of most of the genome down a little bit and I thought this would cause potential bad issues with crossbreeding by genes not lining up correctly, but it seems that the gene type and ID are also used to help line up genes properly, so that shouldn't be as bad a potential problem as I thought... From looking at genomes like the Treehuggers and Hardmen, who crossbreed with other breeds fine, even though they have extra inserted genes, some very early on in the genome so that most of their genes are shifted down compared to normal nons, it seems that inserting a couple of genes shouldn't really have too bad of an effect. Thanks for noticing it, I'll be putting those changes into the next version of CFF (which will probably be the final 1.0 version). Now that I know inserting a gene or two into some organs won't hurt as long as I'm careful about gene ID conflicts, I'll probably also be implementing the missing alcohol liver effects and adipose heart effects from C1/C2 also. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Testing 4 new genes, based closely on some more realistic biochemistry in previous games... Vitamin E receptor in the gonad Vitamin E over a certain threshold keeps the organ healthy, by making it more resilient against damage... Allows a significantly faster repair rate as long as the level of Vitamin E stays over this threshold. Vitamin E receptor in the uterus Vitamin E increases the repair rate of this organ based on how much vitamin E is in the body, instead of the gonad's flat increase as long as the creature gets enough. In this case, the more vitamin E they get, the more resilient this organ is against damage. Adipose tissue receptor in the Mitochondrial function Extremely high amounts of stored adipose tissue will start to slowly cause damage to this organ. Since this organ represents the action of properly circulating blood, this represents the occurrence of heart disease in very obese creatures. Alcohol receptor in the liver anabolic Getting significantly drunk slightly increases the rate this organ acts at, causing some slight temporary metabolic imbalances; This also makes them have to pee more when drunk, and causes a tiny bit of extra aging of the organ. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
Sounds pretty cool - does anything give Vitamin E in the games, or can norns make Vitamin E from fat? My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Nothing makes vitamin E in the games as far as I can tell... However, from the effects of these vitamins in the games, and the fact that there are no vitamin deficiencies possible in the games, I am thinking that it's assumed that base nutritional amounts of any vitamins that are made or required from a regular diet are either already there in their food or made by the creatures' metabolisms, and already account for the normal function of their various organs and immune system. So, you can kind of do a little hand-waving for the sake of simplicity and say reasonably that they make enough vitamin E for normal function from the fat in their diets (or, if they aren't getting enough fat, from their own adipose tissues). Just like they make enough vitamin C in their bodies or get enough of it from food or fruit in their regular diets to avoid scurvy. The vitamin chemicals seem to represent extra vitamin supplements, or rather, higher than normal saturations of these vitamins, which have additional noticeable effects: supplements of C slightly boosting the immune system and helping prostaglandin production, supplements of E making the reproductive organs a little more resilient to damage. EDIT - PS: That being said, one could make creatures whose 'normal' saturation of some vitamins is actually zero, and therefore require higher than that to live... That is, they would require a certain amount the vitamin chemicals for normal function. It would probably take some extra genes to represent what the deficiency does, and maybe some initial concentration genes to put some in them when they are born, and then (unless you want to be totally dependent on shots, special food agents, or other outside agents to get the vitamins) you'd want to change some stims related to eating in them to let them get some of the vitamins from some kinds of food, or maybe even make genes to let them get vitamins from environmental factors like light or even other stims, like pushing creatures... Making the deficiency noticeable might be difficult, unless you want the person to have to monitor them at all times with an x-ray or something or else have them just keel over... so that's another concern with doing something like this... Still, I could see implementing new gaits (Norns with rickets!) or manipulating the creature's facial expressions or emotions to give clues (hot flashes maybe, like the creature complains of being hot then cold then hot again... or they get irritable, or get problems with arousal or fertility, etc... depending on the vitamin and what you want it to do). "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
Couldn't it be as simple, for vitamin E, as making it a side effect of the fat metabolism process? Do you know if the CFF treehuggers generally pass the "IQ test"? My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Treehuggers, even CFF, I think will not do well on IQ tests, they don't ever feel the need to go up or down and don't know anything about lifts. Navigational drives don't really exist to speak of in them. I didn't change that stuff in them, since it would fundamentally change the breed. It should be possible to get them to use lifts by telling them, but I doubt they would make it on their own. They basically were originally designed to use the Random Teleporter to get around if they don't like the place they are (though I don't think hunger is one of the things that prompts them to use a teleporter). As for the vitamin, sure, it would be possible to make it as a side effect of fat metabolism, and that would make sense for creatures that can get real deficiencies of E, or that you just wanted to have extra healthy reproductive organs. If one wanted to make an E deficiency, they could probably make creatures infertile if they don't have enough of the vitamin in their systems without too much difficulty (probably just one extra gene). I still tend to think that normal metabolic vitamin creation, like that of E from fat, are just assumed to be going on, and all the nutritional requirements of vitamins are just assumed to be taken care of in normal creatures, without having those reactions explicitly there in the genes or visible biochemistry... they seem to just account for a normal creature's organs working properly. A huge simplification, but I think implementing a real need for basic nutritional amounts of vitamins would be difficult to do properly and would involve many changes inside of organs, which I am still a bit wary of doing, because it still can cause crossbreeding issues, and the more changes the worse the potential issues (not to mention that it also would be easy for a creature to inherit the need for a vitamin, but not the ability to make it). The actual vitamin chemicals (in normal norns) really do seem to only represent vitamin supplements, extra high amounts of vitamins... Vitamins C and E are the two vitamins humans will often take extra supplements and megadoses of, because taking extra of these vitamins (up to a point) really does seem to have some extra beneficial effects (and these are the effects that these chemicals have on creatures in the games, for the most part). Vitamins in these high amounts, since they aren't vital, are the kind of thing I would expect a creature to have to get a shot or take some kind of potion or eat some special food to get, so I'm fine with having to give them a shot or potion, or find special food for them. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
I've tried to run them through the IQ test twice. Each time, they only pace around the button in the bottom, without knowing to try to press it. If they do press it, they don't know to pull the lift. If they do pull the lift, they don't know to try to approach food (and therefore, the door). If they do approach the door, they don't know to push it when they are trapped. If they do push the door, they don't know to stop pushing the door. If they stop pushing the door, they need to be told to approach food. If they do approach food, they need to push the door to get into the norn meso. If they do get into the norn meso, they need to stop pushing the door and eat something. My current crop seem to get very lonely, for some reason - they end up in a nornblob under a plant-vendor, pushing it repeatedly to make food. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
That behavior is a bit weird if the ones I'm raising are any indication. Do they complain of loneliness? I know the drive chemical goes up, but they don't actually feel it or react to it as far as I can tell, at least by default, the gene to turn it from chemical to drive is dormant... The gene to feel it can actually get reactivated pretty easily in crossbreeds or even full treehuggers occasionally though, and the rest of their genome allows for fairly normal loneliness levels and reactions to loneliness if that gene does get reactivated. A lot of extra things will still reduce crowdedness for them though, and some things will reduce crowdedness instead of loneliness. Hmm.. Mine tend to gather by the cuddly tree or any place that reduces crowdedness (my teapot if i take the tree away, or just a plant)... pushing plants reduces crowdedness for them... Did you say that vendor is a plant? that might do it... No tree to hug so they hug the plant... It lets them feel serene (not crowded) even around the other norns... Since there are a bunch right there, they probably feel like they need to keep pushing it to deal with their crowdedness... it probably builds up fast there. But yes, Treehuggers navigational drives are all also disabled by default, this is in the base genome, and they cannot properly follow CAs except in left or right directions as a result, although I'm pretty sure they can be led to doors by a CA and may try them out of curiosity once near them (though good luck on them figuring out the whole door technology thing and staying on the side of the door they really want...) They also have all instincts regarding lifts disabled, and even things like like pushing doors for exit/enter drive, or the 'wait' drive after pushing a door, (because they cannot feel 'wait' drive, OR the need to exit or enter a room...), So I would be surprised if that stuff you mention DIDN'T happen to them. They do have an urge to push a teleporter if they get very hurt, get very crowded, and I think some other drive too, but that's about as far as they go with actual navigation... "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
Yeah, they do complain of loneliness. Here's a gene compare of my highest generation with a first generation, hope this helps somehow. Version 3 genome C:UsersJohnDocumentsCreaturesDocking StationMy WorldsTreeHuggerGenetics�01-dawn-rbvsw-2fdya-pyjdd-88vqd.gen Total number of genes: 884 Total number of lobes: 18 Total number of brain organs: 1 Total number of brain tracts: 34 Total number of receptors: 208 Total number of emitters: 46 Total number of neuroemitters: 1 Total number of reactions: 121 Total number of halflives: 1 Total number of initial concentrations: 25 Total number of stimuli: 61 Total number of genus records: 1 Total number of appearance genes: 5 Total number of poses: 242 Total number of gaits: 16 Total number of instincts: 53 Total number of pigments: 13 Total number of pigment bleeds: 9 Total number of facial expressions: 7 Total number of organs: 22 ********************************* Version 3 genome C:UsersJohnDocumentsCreaturesDocking StationMy WorldsTreeHuggerGenetics�20-moon-3r8kp-z2jhm-ckglp-sdbgc.gen Total number of genes: 883 Total number of lobes: 18 Total number of brain organs: 1 Total number of brain tracts: 34 Total number of receptors: 208 Total number of emitters: 45 Total number of neuroemitters: 1 Total number of reactions: 121 Total number of halflives: 1 Total number of initial concentrations: 25 Total number of stimuli: 61 Total number of genus records: 1 Total number of appearance genes: 5 Total number of poses: 242 Total number of gaits: 16 Total number of instincts: 53 Total number of pigments: 13 Total number of pigment bleeds: 9 Total number of facial expressions: 7 Total number of organs: 22 *********************************** Differences between two genomes: Version 3 genome Total number of genes: 79 Total number of lobes: 0 Total number of brain organs: 0 Total number of brain tracts: 0 Total number of receptors: 16 Total number of emitters: 9 Total number of neuroemitters: 0 Total number of reactions: 12 Total number of halflives: 0 Total number of initial concentrations: 0 Total number of stimuli: 7 Total number of genus records: 1 Total number of appearance genes: 0 Total number of poses: 0 Total number of gaits: 1 Total number of instincts: 3 Total number of pigments: 19 Total number of pigment bleeds: 11 Total number of facial expressions: 0 Total number of organs: 0 ***************************** ***** LOBES **** ***** BRAIN ORGANS **** ***** BRAIN TRACTS **** ***** RECEPTORS **** 11 Different in file 1 9 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 0, Creature, Drives, Crowded, chem=Crowded, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=238, features=Analogue (0) 11 Different in file 2 9 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 0, Creature, Drives, Loneliness, chem=Crowded, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=238, features=Analogue (0) 45 Different in file 1 134 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 2, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Glycogen, thresh=34, nom=191, gain=229, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 45 Different in file 2 134 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 2, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Glycogen, thresh=34, nom=190, gain=229, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 65 Different in file 1 30 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 3, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Glucose, thresh=25, nom=217, gain=255, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 65 Different in file 2 30 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 3, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Glucose, thresh=24, nom=217, gain=255, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 70 Different in file 1 24 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 3, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Triglyceride, thresh=25, nom=221, gain=204, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 70 Different in file 2 24 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 3, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Unknown Locus: 1, chem=Triglyceride, thresh=24, nom=221, gain=204, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 73 Different in file 1 170 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 3, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 1, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=57, features=Analogue (0) 73 Different in file 2 170 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 3, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 0, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=57, features=Analogue (0) 142 Different in file 1 42 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 6, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Hotness, thresh=80, nom=128, gain=127, features=Analogue (0) 142 Different in file 2 42 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 6, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Hotness, thresh=80, nom=129, gain=127, features=Analogue (0) 154 Different in file 1 41 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 0, chem=Adipose Tissue, thresh=8, nom=255, gain=255, features=Inverted Digital (0) 154 Different in file 2 41 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 1, chem=Adipose Tissue, thresh=8, nom=255, gain=255, features=Inverted Digital (0) 168 Different in file 1 83 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Prostaglandin, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=159, features=Analogue (0) 168 Different in file 2 83 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Prostaglandin, thresh=0, nom=1, gain=159, features=Analogue (0) 173 Different in file 1 150 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 8, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Ammonia, thresh=22, nom=128, gain=66, features=Analogue (0) 173 Different in file 2 150 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 8, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Ammonia, thresh=22, nom=128, gain=67, features=Analogue (0) 202 Different in file 1 68 0 You F MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 11, Creature, Sensorimotor, Involuntary action 1, chem=Progesterone, thresh=245, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0) 202 Different in file 2 68 0 You F MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 11, Creature, Sensorimotor, Involuntary action 1, chem=Progesterone, thresh=245, nom=1, gain=255, features=Digital (0) 240 Different in file 1 183 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 13, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 4, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=58, features=Analogue (0) 240 Different in file 2 183 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 13, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 4, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=58, features=Analogue (0) 258 Different in file 1 85 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 14, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Prostaglandin, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=143, features=Analogue (0) 258 Different in file 2 85 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 14, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Prostaglandin, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=142, features=Analogue (0) 288 Different in file 1 128 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 16, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 2, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=46, features=Analogue (0) 288 Different in file 2 128 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 16, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 2, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=46, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 356 Different in file 1 191 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Vitmain C, thresh=0, nom=209, gain=64, features=Analogue (0) 355 Different in file 2 191 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Vitmain C, thresh=0, nom=209, gain=64, features=Inverted Analogue (0) 40 New in file 1 49 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 2, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Cholesterol, thresh=16, nom=230, gain=229, features=Inverted Digital (0) 40 New in file 2 49 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 1 Organ# = 2, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=Cholesterol, thresh=16, nom=230, gain=229, features=Inverted Digital (0) ***** EMITTERS **** 157 Different in file 1 32 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Sensorimotor, Crowdedness, chem=Crowded, thresh=26, samp=6, gain=6, features=Analogue (0) 157 Different in file 2 32 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Sensorimotor, Light level, chem=Crowded, thresh=26, samp=6, gain=6, features=Analogue (0) 162 Different in file 1 10 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 2, chem=121, thresh=128, samp=9, gain=2, features=Inverted Digital (0) 162 Different in file 2 10 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 2, chem=121, thresh=128, samp=9, gain=2, features=Inverted Digital (0) 290 Different in file 1 31 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 22, chem=Stress, thresh=128, samp=24, gain=5, features=Digital (0) 290 Different in file 2 31 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 22, chem=Stress, thresh=128, samp=24, gain=5, features=Digital /Clear source (0) 298 Different in file 1 23 0 You B MutDupCutDor 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 14, chem=Stress, thresh=128, samp=24, gain=5, features=Digital (0) 297 Different in file 2 23 0 You B MutDupCutDor 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 14, chem=Sleepase, thresh=128, samp=24, gain=5, features=Digital (0) 160 New in file 1 35 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 3, chem=Hunger for protein, thresh=128, samp=12, gain=2, features=Digital (0) 295 New in file 1 26 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 17, chem=Stress, thresh=128, samp=24, gain=20, features=Digital (0) 310 New in file 1 15 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 11, chem=Stress (Fear), thresh=128, samp=14, gain=6, features=Digital (0) 160 New in file 2 35 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 1 Organ# = 7, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 3, chem=Hunger for protein, thresh=128, samp=12, gain=2, features=Digital (0) 309 New in file 2 15 0 You B MutDupCut 128 1 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 11, chem=Stress (Fear), thresh=128, samp=14, gain=6, features=Digital (0) ***** NEURO EMITTERS **** ***** REACTIONS **** 219 Different in file 1 72 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, 1*Libido lowerer + 1*Sex drive => 1*Libido lowerer + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 0 219 Different in file 2 72 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, 1*Libido lowerer + 1*Anger => 1*Libido lowerer + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 0 237 Different in file 1 3 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 13, 1*Anger + 1*<NONE> => 1*Fear + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 46 237 Different in file 2 3 0 Emb B MutDupCut 129 0 Organ# = 13, 1*Anger + 1*<NONE> => 1*Fear + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 46 246 Different in file 1 10 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 14, 1*Hunger for fat backup + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hunger for fat + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 58 246 Different in file 2 10 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 14, 1*Coldness backup + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hunger for fat + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 58 251 Different in file 1 102 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 14, 1*Sleepiness backup + 1*Sleepase => 1*Sleepiness + 1*Sleepase; half-life = 7 251 Different in file 2 102 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 14, 1*Sleepiness backup + 1*Sleepase => 1*Sleepiness + 1*Sleepase; half-life = 6 266 Different in file 1 32 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Hotness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hotness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 266 Different in file 2 32 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Coldness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hotness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 339 Different in file 1 74 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Cyanide + 1*Sodium thiosulphite => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 14 338 Different in file 2 74 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 0*Cyanide + 1*Sodium thiosulphite => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 14 343 Different in file 1 81 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Alcohol + 1*Dehydrogenase => 1*Glucose + 1*Pain; half-life = 31 342 Different in file 2 81 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Alcohol + 0*Dehydrogenase => 1*Glucose + 1*Pain; half-life = 31 870 Different in file 1 19 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Hotness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hotness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 869 Different in file 2 19 0 Emb B MutDupCut 129 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Hotness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hotness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 181 New in file 1 53 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 9, 2*Water + 4*Hotness => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 48 864 New in file 1 116 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 6 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 64 181 New in file 2 53 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 1 Organ# = 9, 2*Water + 4*Hotness => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 48 863 New in file 2 116 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 7 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 64 ***** HALF LIVES **** ***** INITIAL CONCENTRATIONS **** ***** STIMULI **** 392 Different in file 1 4 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Hand pats me (1) causes sig=0 GS neu=4 int=0, ,,,240 => -5*Anger + -6*Fear + -5*Crowded + 87*Reward 391 Different in file 2 4 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Hand pats me (1) causes sig=0 GS neu=4 int=0, ,,,240 => -5*Anger + -6*Boredom + -5*Crowded + 87*Reward 513 Different in file 1 47 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Activate button (89) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=109, ,,,16 => -3*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> 512 Different in file 2 47 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Activate button (89) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=109, ,,,16 => -4*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> 519 Different in file 1 40 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Consume alcohol (82) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,192 => -11*Pain + -7*Boredom + 14*Alcohol + 5*Glucose 518 Different in file 2 40 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Consume alcohol (82) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,192 => -11*Pain + -7*Boredom + 14*76 + 5*Glucose 524 Different in file 1 46 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Play danger animal (88) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -1*Pain + -1*Fear + -5*Crowded + -16*Loneliness 523 Different in file 2 46 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Play danger animal (88) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -1*Pain + -1*Fear + -6*Crowded + -16*Loneliness 530 Different in file 1 54 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Reached peak of smell 15 (70) causes sig=0 GS neu=7 int=48, ,,,48 => -124*Comfort + 2*Boredom + 3*Crowded + 0*<NONE> 529 Different in file 2 54 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Reached peak of smell 15 (70) causes sig=0 GS neu=7 int=48, ,,,48 => -124*Comfort + 2*Boredom + 3*Crowded + 0*<NONE> 536 Different in file 1 58 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Ac6 (27) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -124*Pain + -124*Boredom + -124*Crowded + -124*Loneliness 535 Different in file 2 58 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Ac6 (27) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -124*Pain + -124*Fear + -124*Crowded + -124*Loneliness 845 Different in file 1 61 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Hand has said no (42) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,48 => 4*Fear + 87*Punishment + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> 844 Different in file 2 61 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Hand has said no (42) causes sig=1 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,48 => 4*Fear + 87*Punishment + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> ***** GENUS RECORDS **** 0 Different in file 1 1 0 Emb B 128 0 It is genus Norn. 0000: 00 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |.ext.GEN| 0008: 4E 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |Next.GEN| 0010: 4E 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |Next.GEN| 0018: 4E 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |Next.GEN| 0020: 00 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |.ext.GEN| 0028: 4E 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |Next.GEN| 0030: 4E 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |Next.GEN| 0038: 4E 65 78 74 20 47 45 4E |Next.GEN| 0040: 0 Different in file 2 1 0 Emb B 128 0 It is genus Norn. 0000: 30 31 36 2D 77 69 6E 64 |016.wind| 0008: 2D 65 78 62 6D 74 2D 61 |.exbmt.a| 0010: 72 6C 67 61 2D 73 70 65 |rlga.spe| 0018: 36 32 2D 71 6A 61 70 68 |62.qjaph| 0020: 30 31 39 2D 63 6C 61 79 |019.clay| 0028: 2D 6D 36 64 7A 74 2D 73 |.m6dzt.s| 0030: 34 6D 6E 75 2D 72 78 6D |4mnu.rxm| 0038: 6A 38 2D 71 63 68 61 68 |j8.qchah| 0040: ***** APPEARANCES **** ***** POSES **** ***** GAITS **** 482 Different in file 1 14 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Sequence for Frisky = 139 140 141 142 0 0 0 0 481 Different in file 2 14 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Sequence for Frisky = 139 140 141 143 0 0 0 0 ***** INSTINCTS **** 452 Different in file 1 1 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 36 (Norn)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Sex drive] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 0. 451 Different in file 2 1 0 You B MutDupCut 129 0 [03: stim] [Cell 36 (Norn)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Sex drive] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 0. 457 Different in file 1 6 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 8 (Fruit)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Hunger for protein] => Cell 12 (Eat); unknown = 31. 456 Different in file 2 6 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 8 (Fruit)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Hunger for protein] => Cell 12 (Eat); unknown = 31. 501 Different in file 1 10 0 Ado B MutDupCutDor 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 24 (Tool)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Boredom] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 105. 500 Different in file 2 10 0 Ado B MutDupCutDor 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 24 (Tool)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Boredom] => Cell 0 (Quiescent); unknown = 105. ***** PIGMENTS **** 366 Different in file 1 1 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Red is = 128. 365 Different in file 2 1 0 Chi B MutDupCut 254 0 Intensity of Red is = 129. 369 Different in file 1 5 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Red is = 128. 368 Different in file 2 5 0 Chi B MutDupCut 254 0 Intensity of Green is = 128. 378 Different in file 1 13 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Blue is = 128. 377 Different in file 2 13 0 Chi B MutDupCut 196 0 Intensity of Blue is = 128. 368 New in file 1 3 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Blue is = 128. 370 New in file 1 7 0 Ado M MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Red is = 128. 372 New in file 1 4 0 Ado F MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Red is = 132. 373 New in file 1 8 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Green is = 128. 374 New in file 1 9 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Green is = 128. 375 New in file 1 10 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Green is = 128. 376 New in file 1 11 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Blue is = 128. 377 New in file 1 12 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Intensity of Blue is = 128. 367 New in file 2 3 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 1 Intensity of Blue is = 128. 369 New in file 2 7 0 Ado M MutDupCut 255 1 Intensity of Red is = 129. 371 New in file 2 4 0 You F MutDupCut 255 1 Intensity of Red is = 132. 372 New in file 2 8 0 Chi B MutDupCut 254 1 Intensity of Red is = 128. 374 New in file 2 10 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 1 Intensity of Green is = 128. 375 New in file 2 11 0 Emb B MutDupCut 254 1 Intensity of Unknown pigmentation: 3 is = 129. 376 New in file 2 12 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 1 Intensity of Blue is = 129. 373 New in file 2 9 0 Emb B MutDupCut 254 142 Intensity of Green is = 128. ***** PIGMENT BLEEDS **** 380 Different in file 1 2 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 379 Different in file 2 2 0 Emb B MutDupCut 254 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 382 Different in file 1 4 0 Ado F MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 381 Different in file 2 4 0 Ado F MutDupCut 254 0 Rotation = 129, Swap = 150. 384 Different in file 1 6 0 Ado F MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 383 Different in file 2 6 0 Ado F MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 129. 385 Different in file 1 7 0 Ado M MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 384 Different in file 2 7 0 You M MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 387 Different in file 1 9 0 Ado M MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 386 Different in file 2 9 0 Ado M MutDupCut 254 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 379 New in file 1 1 0 Emb B MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 383 New in file 1 5 0 Ado F MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 386 New in file 1 8 0 Ado M MutDupCut 255 0 Rotation = 128, Swap = 128. 378 New in file 2 1 0 Chi B MutDupCut 255 1 Rotation = 128, Swap = 129. 382 New in file 2 5 0 You F MutDupCut 255 1 Rotation = 129, Swap = 128. 385 New in file 2 8 0 You M MutDupCut 255 49 Rotation = 128, Swap = 129. ***** FACIAL EXPRESSIONS **** ***** ORGANS **** My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Ha, I figured it out, lol... that's a funny mutation... look at the first receptor in your compare... gene 11... 11 Different in file 1 9 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 0, Creature, Drives, Crowded, chem=Crowded, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=238, features=Analogue (0) 11 Different in file 2 9 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 0, Creature, Drives, Loneliness, chem=Crowded, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=238, features=Analogue (0) This mutated gene is making crowdedness chemical responsible for the loneliness drive instead of the crowdedness drive... So, loneliness chemical is still disabled, but these are still almost the opposite of normal treehuggers. They can't feel crowded... Even weirder, when their environment is crowding, and they get the crowdedness chemical, it actually does the opposite, it actually makes them feel lonely... So, pretty much the first time they meet another norn, they will start to feel lonely, and want to hug up on them, this makes them even more lonely, so they just want to stay in a clump all the time, this clump will be extremely lonely at this point, so they will stay clumped together but complain of loneliness. Instinctively, that makes them want to approach each other and stay in the clump, and they probably will never figure out that 'retreat norn' would work to solve their problem with feeling lonely (though they would eventually forget their loneliness for a little while when they get hungry, so it makes sense that the clump would eventually congregrate near some food source) They may also be noticing that pushing the plant reduces crowdedness chemical, which for them is their loneliness.. so they are always trying to control it with the plant...Without being able to feel crowded, I'm guessing these Norns are pretty peaceful too. I can see how a gene that gets them to clump and makes them feel lonely could be good at propagating itself, especially if they feel an urge to push each other to get rid of the lonely feelings, or can control their loneliness enough so that it's lower than their sex drive... and their sex drive must be pretty high with so many Norns around. EDIT: Looking at them further, they also have a gene where libido lowerer reacts and reduces anger, rather than sex drive... This means both females and males are fertile more often (and are even less likely to ever slap each other... so more liking and more pushing interactions...). Females no longer lose the urge to mate when they are on the edges of their cycles, and males have no restriction to mating several times in a row... Now I definitely see how these genes propagated themselves. They make Norns that are extra driven to hang out in a clump and be extra nice to each other, and that literally can never get enough of either company or mating... "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
So, if you spread your Norns out, they won't really be lonely... Hmm, I think your Treehugger Norns turned from hippies into sort of emo hipsters now... they all like to get together to talk about how alone they are, and the more people around, the more they like to talk about how they have nobody that understands them or gets them, but when they are actually alone with nobody to complain to, it really doesn't bother them... "I'm so lonely man..." "yeah me too..." "let's all talk about how lonely we are together..." "nobody loves us..." "I know, it's such a cruel world..." "I'm such an outcast..." "yeah me too... we are so alone... alone in a crowd..." "a crowd of strangers..." "... hold me..." "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
Thanks for the gene analysis! My TCR Norns |
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 CeruleanSilver |
I'm really looking forward to the upgrade for the lactic acid chemical. While at first I didn't have many problems with it, at least initially, but it tends to crop up in later gens I'm noticing. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, so far only the Treehuggers use the new chemical, and it definitely seems to make a big difference. I've also made another gene change since then, that should make the canceling out of the normal lactate chemical easier to inherit from any CFF (it makes lactate decay practically instantly). The new Bondis will have this too (along with a little more realistic biochemistry stuff that was in older games...) also I've decided to make the fullness response less efficient, and dial it back to where it was before the Evo Norns... The new strength does work very well, but the appetite suppression when hunger is low is a bit TOO strong... it should still be possible to convince them to eat when full, just harder... and they should still be able to pig out a little if they REALLY want to. Basically, it seems that it was making their eating habits a little too robotic, especially combined with their hungerly overwhelmsion, and it was making it a little hard for them to build up a store of nutrients or develop their own eating habits... they were basically programmed to stay perfectly lean at all times and eat just when they need to. Sorry I've been a bit delayed with the new Bondis, I've had some extra work this last week. They should be out this weekend with all the latest fixes. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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CeruleanSilver |
I like the idea of a slightly reduced strength of the fullness response, because I don't know if this is related to the hunger drive, but I also noticed that occasionally norns would just starve to death, even gen ones, but it was definitely worse for later gens. I'm wondering if it's possible that they weren't feeling hungry for something before they didn't have enough time to get to a far away food source? Edit: This may just be a me issue as I don't tend to overly stock areas with food. Most of its like how it's already set up in the game. I wonder if mutations in later generations is worse for CFF because vanilla norns eat everything in sight, so slight changes in instincts or stimuli are probably drowned out by the number of stimuli (aka, mutation for not much stimuli from fat from food, but trace in others that they eat constantly makes up for it?) That being said, none of these issues are major concerns, just trends I've noticed. "Hey, sometimes the CFF norns die as children more commonly." There just seems to be more 'natural selection' moments early in the life of CFF norns that I see regular norns compensate for in some way. I don't actually see that as a problem, it seems more realistic as life is a finely tuned mechanism that mutations mess up a lot more then improve. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, they sometimes ended up acting a bit more like the C1/C2 in a way where it could be nearly impossible to get them to eat unless they were really hungry, and even then sometimes they can get a weird idea in their head not to... That's not that bad really, although I've personally never seen them starve as babies if there is food around to get to... Even if there is no food visible, in my testing they tend to go right for it as soon as they get navigational senses and can follow CAs (at childhood, around 9 minutes or so for most breeds). They will be quite hungry by this time... it's longer than they would go without food normally, they will be half-starved and they will be only thinking about hunger... it can leave them a little weak afterwards, especially if it takes them a long time to find food. Although the ship's natural resources do tend to only support a pretty limited number of creatures... it is possible there just wasn't enough food if there were enough norns around. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Wondering if I should put back in some nutrition loss for sickness... I could easily make it take some glucose for energy to make antibodies, that's realistic (it is the most ready source of energy for cells) and it will put a slight strain on the body's nutrition reserves. These new ones should be able to eat when they are quite low on hunger, especially if you urge them to, and the reaction isn't that fast, so I don't envision it being too dangerous, but still it will make their illness a lot more like in C1/C2 where it helps them if they are fed (though a few cups of tea can work wonders)... The way I am thinking of doing it, some antigens will be worse than others, based on how how long they last and how quickly they get converted into antibodies... I'll have to test it. I don't want sickness to be quite as devastating as it was in C1, but it really does make sense for it to take some extra nutrition to fight off infection, so that if a creature is really weak (from a long illness or from starvation) it is in more danger. Pregnancy should probably also take some nutrition from the mother. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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CeruleanSilver |
I like the idea of a more meaningful challenge with disease, as right now it doesn't seem to factor into much of anything. I clearly remember coming back and finding a stable population in collapse after a disease was picked up in C1, but there isn't really any mechanic like that in C3 to my knowledge. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah I was thinking something similar... I'm also wondering if I should include breeding/lifecycle changes... things like longer pregnancy and longer life, and try and figure out how to get their fertility even lower without making them practically sterile (it's a pretty tough balancing act) Different pregnancy lengths or hormone cycles can be problematic with crossbreeding, they can result in crossbreeds that tend to get stuck pregnancies, so that's one thing to think about. Also longer pregnancies make the nesting instinct (which is natural, and helps establish homes for different breeds, which is much of their personality) kind of awkward for the norns, since they can be sitting around for a pretty long time at home waiting to lay (at least these will forget it long enough to eat if they get hungry though, so that part at least might be okay). But if I were to just increase lifespan, maybe even try to double it from the current 4.5-5 hours, so it is more like the 9-10 hours that was typical for the other games, and make fertility lower, I think it could work out well (might be a little difficult to make them live that long though, I might also have to make all the organs last longer by tweaking all their reactions...) CFF Norns seem to already be a decent amount less fertile than other norns, but I have found they still keep up their population okay with their regular c3 life spans. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 ArchDragon |
Hey guys! Really excited by the prospect of an updated CFE genome. I read the entire thread a couple of days ago and I've been experimenting with the CFF breed since then. I definitely prefer their breeding cycle now. No more being overrun by rabbit Norns. I have had some issues getting them to pass IQ tests, but to be fair, I'm having the same problem with the original CFE Norns. I've written up a full post about them on my blog if you're interested in a full run down. Evo vs CFE |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Thanks for the write-up on your blog! I am making a new set of test CFF norns (Bondi), but try the test Hardmen Bonnie & Clyde or the test Chichis Lucy & Ricky in adoptions, they are CFF 0.6, a more recent and complete CFF than the Evos... The Evos are 0.4 and don't actually include the alcohol reactions you mentioned, those didn't get added until right after them... I think the Hardmen came out very good, but even they are still missing some of the most recent stuff I've been working on... Test Treehuggers John & Yoko have the most complete CFF genome I've released, but they won't do so great on IQ tests since they are Treehuggers. You should like the test Bondi I am working on though... Bondi are cool and these will have all of the changes I've talked about until now, including most of the changes I've been talking about for the last couple of pages of this thread. They should be better with IQ tests too (though i'm not sure what is going on with the norns and your elevines... I'd try the same thing in another room or with regular lifts just to check... or make them migrate around the ship instead and see if they can do that... I've frequently seen CFF journey from meso to terrarrium and back to get things like food... remember to install Vampess' C3/DS fixes too, a lot of them are necessary for proper navigation around the ark and capillata, especially the fix to the meso hatch). If people like these test Bondi, they will be among the first official CFF 1.0 breeds, along with Chichi Treehugger and Hardman. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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ArchDragon |
Hey Evolnemesis! I haven't tried the Hardmen yet, as I've been doing worlds without Grendels. But I should give them a go just for the fun of it. I did realise at some point that the Evos weren't the latest version and I've been using the newer version since then. But the original post I wrote did in fact use the original Evos. Woopse. I've had much more success with the later versions. The Evos tended to breed a little too slowly. In a normal environment I think they would have been okay, but in a migration world they ended up extinct in about 3-4 generations. The later versions have gone strong without my interference for 10 or more generations. Awesome! I haven't used the Treehuggers yet because, as you said, they'll suck at the IQ tests. That said I could have some fun using the Treehuggers and seeing if I can breed the navigational genes back into them before they need to migrate. That actually sounds like a lot of fun. Ooohhh, I should try and breed them with the Hardmen. That could end up with some crazy cross breeds. Pretty sure the navigational issues I had were to do with the world and not the breed. Still not certain what the problem was, but I've been using the Biodome without issues since the original blog post. Can't wait for the Bondi versions. With a slightly longer life span and good navigational skills they'll be perfect for what I'm trying to achieve. Keep up the great work. Definitely the best breed I've played with so far! |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Thanks As for the opinion looping thing... Unfortunately, there's only so much you can do with genetics there, because they are basically forced by the game engine to respond to any creature they are looking at... If a creature talks about an opinion, all creatures looking at it HAVE to also express any opinion they have about the creature being talked about. If they have no opinion of the creature or have never met it, they won't answer. Game scripts also cause them to occasionally express any opinion they have about any creature being looked at or interacted with, which is what starts the loops. This forced behavior only really turns into those long ugly loops with CFE/CFF creatures though... non-CFE creatures do have friend/foe lobes, do get opinions, and can talk about them, but they forget their opinions about everyone, as well as EVERYTHING else they have learned, every time they go to sleep. CFE/CFF can remember every interaction with other creatures, and they remember everything they learn for life (until they start to go senile, anyway...), so they are much more likely to have opinions about other creatures, and therefore are much more likely to have something to say about them. Changing a certain game script can make them start the loops less, but continuing the loops once they start is pretty much forced by the C3 engine itself... The only way to do anything about this problem genetically is to make them more antisocial... That is, make them not want to be looking at or doing anything with each other quite as much, so it's less likely they will be paying attention when another one speaks. I do think I can tweak this a bit in my Bondis, which will be CFF 0.8 (or possibly the first official 1.0 if they work out well)... CFF 0.6-0.7 are a bit more sociable than librarian norns or CFF 0.3-0.5, as well as also being more fertile. I think I can dial back the sociability to pre-0.6 levels without hurting their ability to breed too much... Basically it will work like this: when they are near another norn, they will slowly start to get bored of it, instead of thinking every other norn is fascinating to just be around or look at. This way, it will cause them to look for distractions from other norns more often, breaking up the loops more. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
CFF 0.8 changes: - Tweaked social levels back to pre-0.6 levels. Norns find each other's company to be slightly boring again. - Tweaked fullness response to pre-0.4 levels. Appetite suppression when full still there, but not as total as it is in Evos and later versions... it should again be possible for them to eat with low hunger. - Additional drunk variation, party norn, holds booze well, does not get sleepy but gets bored quickly, look for fun when drunk. - Vitamin E once again affects the body as in C2, improving repair rate of gonads and uterus. - As in C1/C2, When a significant amount of alcohol is in the body, it causes a slight metabolic imbalance (for example, the creature has to urinate more) by speeding up some liver reactions. Over time, this can prematurely age the liver if alcohol is consumed very frequently. - As in C1/C2, extremely high amounts of adipose tissue can cause slow damage to the mitochondrial organ (called the heart organ in C1/C2). This organ controls processes corresponding to the function of properly circulating blood in real animals. This represents the action of heart disease in creatures that are extremely obese (adipose tissue chemical at 95% or more of maximum). - as in C1 (and maybe C2), the formation of antibodies takes nutrition from the body in the form of glucose. This means that sick creatures, especially if they are not carrying much nutrition in body stores, can be in danger of wasting away if they don't get enough food. NOTE: This is largely untested, and the danger level is not currently known (feedback needed!). "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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ArchDragon |
Awesome, trying out the new Bondi updates now. Just wanted to mention, I've been testing a few of the breeds out in a world and despite them never shutting up about how much they all love Carmen (she's seriously the flavour of the month right now) I've noticed none of them are getting crowded, not even the Treehuggers. Is this normal? I thought with all this talking they'd all end up feeling quite crowded. Or have you tweaked something I missed so they don't get overcrowded like they used to? I'm especially surprised by the Treehuggers. I would have thought with 10 Norns all packed into a relatively small space they'd be going out of their minds, even without all the chatter. But they really don't seem bothered at all. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
They definitely can still get crowded, but I might have an idea... Most norns have stims for pushing plants/critters/bugs that reduce loneliness and boredom... Those stims reduce crowding in treehuggers instead of loneliness... CFF have weak instincts that let them know they can try these things to reduce boredom or loneliness. Treehuggers never feel lonely, but most likely when one of these treehuggers is a little bored, it eventually tries pushing a nearby plant or flower, and notices it also reduces crowding... so when they start to feel crowded, they find they can play with a plant or critter or flower or something, and feel fine... This ability is there in normal Treehuggers too, but they usually don't figure it out on their own. Another factor is that CFF are a bit less social compared to most norns. They find just sitting in a clump or staring at each other a little boring, so they don't approach or look at each other as much... They also tend to ignore each other talking a lot unless they like the speaker, are already paying attention to them for another reason, or are interested in what is being said. This is because the 'heard creature speak' stimulus gene is dormant in them. Any change in drives from hearing speech actually makes their attention shift to the speaker (for CFE-based genomes at least), and the game engine makes creatures answer any creature they are looking at. So, if that stim is there, they are forced to answer everyone they hear. This causes a lot of extra chatter, and getting the stim over and over from a bunch of speaking/answering norns can cause a pretty serious obsessive behavioral problem where they can just sit and stare at themselves expressing forever, especially in CFE-based genomes, as well as horrible speech-crowding loops where they just basically go insane (see this thread for details). Deactivating this one gene gets rid of all these problems, and makes their speaking behavior more realistic at the same time. They talk more when they want to, and to whom they want to. I have seen CFF norns get crowded, but crowding is definitely nowhere near as big a problem for them without those feedback loops... When they do get crowded, they pretty quickly figure out they can just move somewhere else, or 'retreat norn' for a little bit and feel okay, and the Treehuggers also learn they can just play with nature to distract themselves and calm down. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Missmysterics |
Considering the stuff that's forced in the engine, It would be interesting to see if this (or the eat-elevator engine problem) is or could be made not-present in a different engine like Openc2e. Unfortunately, altering engines is a rather complicated thing to learn. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, eat elevator seems to be some issue in certain navigation scripts that seem to be hardcoded into the DS engine, and are not in bootstrap files for some reason (I combed through every single one...) It might be possible to find and fix or replace the offending scripts in game though using the CAOS tool, if one could figure out exactly what the problem is, assuming they are injected as scripts... In the CAOS documentation, there are some hints that these scripts exist with certain script numbers called by certain special event numbers. It's possible that they abandoned the idea of using scripts, though, and just hardcoded them into the engine rather than having the engine generate an event that calls a script. The root of the issue seems to be somewhat random, possibly timing-related, like a race condition between a navigational script and their brains... it seems to occur when their scripted CA navigation runs: When they can't walk closer to the peak of the smell they want, and they are near a door or elevator leading to whatever they are looking for, the navigational scripting gives them an appropriate navigational drive (like trapped or low or high) and then tries to switch back to letting them decide their own actions and focus again, but sometimes they get stuck concentrating on the door or elevator and it takes a lot of stimulus to make them pay attention to anything else, which breaks them out of it. It doesn't happen in C3 standalone, so it's doubtful its a problem in the brains themselves, and if it's really a race condition, it might not even be the script... It seems to be a problem related to something about how that script and/or the brain is run in the DS engine, and exactly what happens when the script ends and tries to transfer control back to the creature's brain. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Luzze |
I'm testing around a lot with your 8.1's right now and after setting an agent smell wrong at first found out a rather sad cause of death that probably originates from the chichi genome. I think it could interest you and might be a nice addition to them They got a very strong instinct to push machinery when bored. It makes sense for the norn meso - they push the learning machine all the time, almost get addicted to it. But there are some machines in C3 that give out the CA for machines but aren't usable for any creature. This leads to some of them gathering at the big seed machine thing (idk what it is called in the english version, sorry), running in circles there until they die. I lowered the boredom reduction a lot and got good results from it. They still push the learning machine from time to time but reduce the machine CA tracing. |
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