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Advice re: legality of a website idea   1 | 2
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

Let's say I made a website with a list of every Creatures-related download I have. No actual files would be uploaded to the website, and there wouldn't be any images because that would be a huge pain in the butt; it would just be a list of file names, with short descriptions of each, which would together serve as keywords for whatever search engine someone is using.

On every page of this website, there would be a Disqus comment box. If someone wanted a file I listed myself as having, they would either:

*Leave a comment in the Disqus box asking me to send it to them, if they have a Disqus account and have their email displayed
*Send me an email using the email address I would list

And then I would send it to them.

The idea behind this is to circumvent the fact that a lot of 3rd-party content creators in the CC don't allow hosting outside of a particular website, or without their permission. Nothing would actually be hosted, and all exchanges would be one-on-one, like in the Lost COB Detectives thread (when a working archive link can't be found). It would also be somewhat easier to do than to post in that thread and hope for the best, assuming I had what they were looking for.

Would anyone object to this?

 
GimmeCat

GimmeCat
United Kingdom  


  2/6/2016  2

In terms of legality there would be nothing wrong with it. Whether any authors would object to their files being openly traded in this way would entirely depend on each individual author's personal definition of the phrase "don't host my files outside of my website". I suspect the most common answer to this would be "..." since most of those people aren't around the community anymore. I would argue a statute of limitations should apply on files that have never been rehosted due to the fact that their authors disappeared and never renewed their websites, but that's just me. I've always thought it was a petty and selfish demand and that if they didn't want to share their files, why on earth did they put them up for download in the first place. (But that's going a little off-topic)

A question I'd ask you is: doesn't this setup seem like something that would get tedius for you after a while?

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo


 visit Doringo's website: Abacus & Ettinus
  2/6/2016

Disqus? Isn't that a web bug? [ngrimace]
 
Laura
Tea Queen

Laura
United Kingdom  
Administrator


 visit Laura's website: CC Chat
  2/6/2016

Wouldn't it be a little redundant to include downloads that are easily available elsewhere; no one will request those? It might make more sense (and less work for you!) to only list lost and hard to find downloads on your website, in my humble opinion. :)
 
C-Rex
Lollipop Lord

C-Rex
United Kingdom  

 visit C-Rex's website: The Norn Nebula
  2/6/2016

Laura is right, however, it wouldn't hurt to make private backups of some stuff, as we've already seen Helen's Bibble Directory go down the pan with barely any archives of her Cobs. :(

Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything outside you want, but whether there is anything inside that you have not yet unpacked.
 
Norngirl

Norngirl
Sweden  

 visit Norngirl's website: Norngirl's Temporary Storage
  2/6/2016

I agree with Laura, as was going to say something similar actually!
I second that it make way more sense when it comes to files thats rare to get nowdays and the sites are down and the authors is is maybe not at all around or is not contact-able in any way.

I might be not online much,but im still around and since my site is up,I think it would be silly if ,example,some people are lazy and would rather ask there for my things rather then just go to my page and get it etc ..


 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

It's true that there's a lot of stuff that's easy to find, but that doesn't mean it'll be that way forever (like Nornking said), and also, it would be a lot easier for me to just list everything I have than to try to remember how I got what from where. I have almost 2 gigabytes of stuff by now, spread across 3,383 files.

@GimmeCat: I agree that file-sharing restrictions are petty. It's extremely frustrating to me how much Creatures stuff is effectively lost forever because of that attitude. It seems to me that keeping something "alive" is more important than keeping track of where someone can get it, but that's also getting kinda off-topic.

@GimmeCat again: It would be very tedious, but so is saving all this stuff in the first place. I'm no stranger to doing ludicrously repetitive work in my free time, and in this case, it's even for a "good cause".

@Doringo: It's a way to add forum-style comment boxes to a webpage. Every Disqus "instance" can be logged into with one account, so it's more convenient than setting up your own system when all you need is something simple.

@Norngirl: That's true, but I think someone looking for something that's still readily available would find a website that actually hosts it more easily than my hypothetical page, and even if not, laziness would probably lead them to look for an actual download before asking someone else for the file. :P

 
Laura
Tea Queen

Laura
United Kingdom  
Administrator


 visit Laura's website: CC Chat
  2/6/2016  1

BlocklockCity wrote:
It's true that there's a lot of stuff that's easy to find, but that doesn't mean it'll be that way forever (like Nornking said), and also, it would be a lot easier for me to just list everything I have than to try to remember how I got what from where. I have almost 2 gigabytes of stuff by now, spread across 3,383 files.

If that's going to be the case... This might make me unpopular, but I don't want my agents to be included on the list please, not while they're still available on this website and not while I still have back up copies. It's not that I don't want them shared, but I like people to be able to see the accompanying description and picture when they download them; it's part of the package. That's what makes hosting them in a dedicated downloads section ideal!

For me, only having the filename in a long list just isn't what I intended for my agents (not while I'm still on the scene, at least) and won't adequately inform people about them at a glance. :\

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

It'd probably be a good idea to add a series of disclaimers to the website idea. Something like

1.) No files are hosted on this website. Nothing can be downloaded from here; you have to ask me to send the things you want to your email.
2.) Look around before asking; you might be able to find an active download. Just because it's listed here doesn't mean this is the easiest or only way to get it.
3.) Some third thing, because three is a nicer number than two.

 
Laura
Tea Queen

Laura
United Kingdom  
Administrator


 visit Laura's website: CC Chat
  2/6/2016  2

I'm afraid that I'm still going to decline, disclaimer or no disclaimer. I think my reasons are fair, considering my agents aren't lost or difficult to get hold of. If Creatures Caves went down, or I disappeared from the community, then it would be a different story. I wouldn't be at all against having them on your list in those circumstances.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

Saying publicly that I have copies of things you've made is too much?

How would someone know how to look for something if they didn't already know what it was?

 
Razgriz

Razgriz



  2/6/2016

A "warehouse" site consisting mostly of filenames sounds like the perfect way to annoy the precious few creators around the community to be perfectly honest with you. After all, you're reducing the time and effort people put into their creations into a filename and accompanying words. Do you really think your claim that no files are actually being hosted and will only be provided via email somehow absolves you of any responsibility?

Either you take responsibility for your site and respect the wishes of active creators or you don't. The latter is most certainly not going to earn you any goodwill I can tell you that right now.

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  2/6/2016  1

Frankly said, I would not feel comfortable with my things on the list either. I made them and I want to have some control where they are offered. When I go M.I.A. with no hints of a soon return, then you can put them up, but I am still here.
The other thing is that having downloads ready for the purpose of backing up and restoring lost stuff is fine, but only when they need to be restored. As a lot of agents are hosted here on the page, there is no need to "rescue" them like that. CCaves is alive and healthy and shows no signs of disappearing anytime soon.

The vast majority of websites that died and vanished didn't do that over night. They died a slow and painful to watch death, over months and months, showing several symptoms. Now we know what it looks like and what it means, so we can act quick next time.
Again, CCaves is showing nothing of this, so there is no need for a secondary download mirror.


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

I'm questioning the reasoning, I didn't say I wouldn't respect the creators' wishes.

@Papriko, it's not just Creatures Caves if that's what you mean.

 
Razgriz

Razgriz



  2/6/2016  1

You honestly have very little ground if none at all to be questioning their wishes. There's no ifs ands or buts here, if our active creators do not want you distributing their work then you don't. Doesn't matter what method of distribution it is, they have every right to not allow it. Plus, they've even clarified the exact circumstances in which it would be allowed in this very thread.
 
Laura
Tea Queen

Laura
United Kingdom  
Administrator


 visit Laura's website: CC Chat
  2/6/2016  1

Just to clarify, I don't mind anyone making back ups of my agents or uploading them onto their own website, with the appropriate credit given. I just don't want them added to this particular list while I'm still active. I tried to explain my reasoning in the best way I could, but I'll elaborate further:

Laura wrote:
It's not that I don't want them shared, but I like people to be able to see the accompanying description and picture when they download them; it's part of the package. That's what makes hosting them in a dedicated downloads section ideal!

For me, only having the filename in a long list just isn't what I intended for my agents (not while I'm still on the scene, at least) and won't adequately inform people about them at a glance.

You're right, there will be people who'll request agents from the list, knowing exactly what they are, but that won't be the case every time. Some people will be a bit foggy on the details, and others won't have a clue about what they're looking at. I just want (at the very least) for my agents' descriptions to be included on whatever page they're offered from - it's part of the package - something your list of filenames won't have.

I do see a way around this though: You could list every download you've accumulated (including mine), but add hyperlinks with download locations to those that are still available on other websites? Just an idea.

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  2/6/2016

I wasn't talking about the Caves alone. I just used them as example because this is where I personally keep my stuff. The whole "keep an eye out if the website dies and actually needs it's download rescued" thing still applies to other pages.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
C-Rex
Lollipop Lord

C-Rex
United Kingdom  

 visit C-Rex's website: The Norn Nebula
  2/6/2016

For the record, feel free to back up my stuff but only share it in the circumstance that it the original links no longer work and I am no longer active in the community. :P

Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything outside you want, but whether there is anything inside that you have not yet unpacked.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

You honestly have very little ground if none at all to be questioning their wishes. There's no ifs ands or buts here, if our active creators do not want you distributing their work then you don't. Doesn't matter what method of distribution it is, they have every right to not allow it. Plus, they've even clarified the exact circumstances in which it would be allowed in this very thread.


What would qualify as "grounds" to question their wishes to you? Is it unreasonable to want to completely understand the restrictions someone places on you?

I do see a way around this though: You could list every download you've accumulated (including mine), but add hyperlinks with download locations to those that are still available on other websites? Just an idea.


That's do-able, but both tedious beyond a degree that I could justify to myself and redundant, because isn't that pretty much what the Creatures Wiki should be? Maybe I should concentrate the effort I was thinking about putting into a website into the wiki instead.

For the record, agent descriptions have always been part of the idea:

it would just be a list of file names, with short descriptions of each,


 
Laura
Tea Queen

Laura
United Kingdom  
Administrator


 visit Laura's website: CC Chat
  2/6/2016

If I missed the bit where you mentioned that short descriptions are to be included, then I do sincerely apologise. To be honest though, after our exchange in this topic, I'd rather keep the distribution of my agents to just this website, private sharing and to anyone who wishes to directly upload the files to theirs.

I'm stepping out of this discussion now. Good luck with the rest of your list.

 
Razgriz

Razgriz



  2/6/2016

If they hadn't elaborated on their conditions to allow something like this, that would've been more than fine to question. Since they explained almost immediately, that's when you really don't have anything to question them on.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

Explaining the conditions =/= giving someone an understanding of why those conditions exist.
 
jcnorn

jcnorn
Sweden  


  2/6/2016


For the record, agent descriptions have always been part of the idea:

it would just be a list of file names, with short descriptions of each,



How short is short though? Because if it's just a string of words I wouldn't call that a description, that's just keywords. A description is a paragraph of proper sentences describing the cob/agent :)

 
Razgriz

Razgriz



  2/6/2016  1

BlocklockCity wrote:
Explaining the conditions =/= giving someone an understanding of why those conditions exist.



Now that's just being pedantic and more to the point, should not matter to you at all. You've been told what it would take for you to distribute their work while still respecting their wishes and quite frankly at that point the onus is entirely on you. There should be no need to question them further.

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

Most things wouldn't need a paragraph to explain what they contain and what they do. Here's some examples I pulled out of my butt:

"A set of Easter-themed egg sprites for Creatures 2, made by [whoever] for CCSF [date]."
"The [whatever] Norns for C3/DS use Breed Slot [whatever] and have a slightly modified Chichi genome, with extra Pigment + Pigment Bleed genes and the ability to breathe underwater. Sprites by [whoever], genome by [whoever]. Does not come with an egg agent."
"This patch that fixes the problem with [whatever], where it would vend the wrong food when 'pulled', and disappear from the world if 'hit' by a creature. Original agent by Cyberlife, patch by [whoever]."
"[name] is a Generation [#] [creature] with an unusual mutation that converts Hunger++ into Fear. He has no other outstanding mutations, but displays strange behavior due to mixed ancestry, and is not very bright (neither Canny nor Nova Subterra). Pumuckl Norns and Opera Ettins must be installed to view him correctly. Originally bred by [whoever].

That's about the level of detail I was thinking of.

Now that's just being pedantic and more to the point, should not matter to you at all. You've been told what it would take for you to distribute their work while still respecting their wishes and quite frankly at that point the onus is entirely on you. There should be no need to question them further.


Why shouldn't there be? Is it wrong for me to want to understand what personal reasons someone might have for any restrictions they place on distributing their content?

 
GimmeCat

GimmeCat
United Kingdom  


  2/6/2016  1

In response to Laura's concerns (despite that she may not read this having stepped out of the topic), this is why I package my agents into a zip file. There you can include as much detail as you want, screenshots, readmes, contact information, everything someone would need to be fully versed on the file in question, and it remains available no matter where someone downloaded it from as long as they don't for some reason unzip the package and distribute the agent alone.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

That's the way I like things done, too. Virtually everything I have saved is in .zip format; the exceptions are mostly official stuff like updates and object packs.

If I can figure out a way to search for .zip files that don't contain any kind of text file, I'd like to go through and add readmes to everything, based on whatever information I can find. Images are lower priority, but would still be good to have, again assuming I can find a way to 1.) search within archive files 2.) for ones that don't contain a specific type of file.

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  2/6/2016  1

How about the thing Laura mentioned in her first post? Isn't it redundant to re-upload or re-offer readily available agents? You even said it yourself later on that there is a lot of redundancy in this whole project, also due to Creatures Wiki.
Anyway, the entire point of the project is to rescue otherwise lost content of people who have left the community, isn't it? We and our downloads are neither of these two things, so just take a no as NO already.


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
SpaceShipRat

SpaceShipRat
Italy  


  2/6/2016

So then, how about just a submission form where you can ask for agents and have them mailed? Actually, it would be cool to have it more crowdsourced.

People could sign up to see the requests, and the one who has the file would "accept" the request on the site (so the others know not to send it too), and send the required files.

There would be no need to lost agents or descriptions on the site then, and everything would be relatively confidential. Plus I'm sure no one would even bother going through the hassle to ask to be mailed agents that are still available online.

Pairing this with a little Wiki revision, so people can look up agents there, would be the best.

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  2/6/2016

That sounds a lot like the Lost Download Detectives which seem to perform very well already.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

Anyway, the entire point of the project is to rescue otherwise lost content of people who have left the community, isn't it? We and our downloads are neither of these two things, so just take a no as NO already.


Just because we're still talking about the idea doesn't mean I'm gonna go through on it, which I never had plans to do. That's why the OP is written as a hypothetical; I haven't done anything except accumulate downloads, and no serious planning has taken place, either. I made this thread to see what people would think of the idea I had for a site, because I had a feeling it was questionable, and that's it.

@SpaceShipRat, that could be interesting, but I don't know how effective crowdsourcing would be with how small the CC is. And--

I'm sure no one would even bother going through the hassle to ask to be mailed agents that are still available.


--is a point I've been trying to make.

I think the mistake a lot of people are making in this thread is reading intent for me to to actually make this site where there isn't any. "This is how I could do things" isn't the same statement as "this is what I'm going to do".

 
SpaceShipRat

SpaceShipRat
Italy  


  2/6/2016

"I don't know how effective crowdsourcing would be with how small the CC is."

Well, you're proposing to do it all alone, I'm just saying perhaps two or three others might help you out, me included.


It's funny finding this thread, because I'd had the exact same idea. Of course I just thought it would be a way to get around "no upload" rules of vanished creators and lost downloads, not stuff you can still find.

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  2/6/2016

The only reason I'd list things that are still available is because I don't keep track of which files I have that are still easy to find (not everything in my archive is recently-downloaded). It would be a lot easier to just generate a list of what I have from filenames than to check everything individually, even if all I had to do was jog my memory (for things I got the day before, for example).
 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  2/6/2016

So basically you first say that you are ready to do this whole tedious boring task. When people tell you what they don't like about it, you come up with a solution, but say you are not gonna apply it because it is a tedious boring task? Seems legit.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
SpaceShipRat

SpaceShipRat
Italy  


  2/6/2016

I guess maybe make the list public, and we should try to go through it, and use it to update the wiki, in some way that clearly marks which mods are available? Though that's always in flux too.

In the end it always goes back to that. We need a way to get mods -> there's the lost download detectives thread -> it's impossible to go through and we'd need a categorized version -> we have the wiki -> the wiki is a puzzle to manage and update.

bleh.

 
Trell
Wee Scrivener

Trell
Canada  

 visit Trell's website: TrellyOllyOxenFree
  2/6/2016  4

Hi there, just popping in to remind everyone to please respect people's wishes in regards to their agents and works, okay? That way we can avoid any misunderstandings or hard feelings. Thanks~

Trell
"Holy crap in a casket!"

 

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