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 Code Monkey evolnemesis  |
I thought they could live for about 10 minutes after birth with no food, as opposed to other norns which live a ridiculous 30 minutes or so... but yeah, even with drive overwhelmsion I'd think testing them at birth would be dangerous for them. More recent testing on vitamin C has shown we store quite a lot more than was originally thought, but most of it is locked up in tissues that retain it quite strongly as the amount gets low in them, you typically see concentrations in these tissues of up to about 50-100 times what might be seen in the blood, and potentially much longer half-lives too. But you are right that we do pee out most of it, pretty much any measurable vitamin c we get into our bloodstream has a halflife of around 30 minutes or shorter... very little of it gets absorbed typically, and almost all gets eliminated with urination. The tissues absorb only as needed, and its used up pretty slowly in the body... When saturated, which will be the case practically all the time unless a person has a deficiency, the half-life in these tissues is about the same 30 minutes you see in blood, so they absorb practically none. However, in the case of a person getting insufficient vitamin C, as the amount stored in the tissues drops, the half-life in those tissues goes up to as long as 83 days, letting them retain more and more of what gets into them from the blood as the the amount stored goes down, and letting the person live without symptoms for up to 4 months with no vitamin C... The half-life increasing in the tissues as the stored amount decreases is what allows them to keep retaining the vitamin and stay at their saturation point under normal circumstances. That's what I meant about how the half-life might have to be even much shorter than that 20 minutes for norns, if we assume they really already have enough in their tissues and the vitamin C chemical you inject just represents extra that will float around in their blood and get peed out, like pretty much all vitamin C humans get. It might make more sense to just eliminate it all when they urinate. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Malkin Manager  |
Is the Hunger Overwhelmsion organ as vulnerable as the stomach? Because in my test population, it seems to be more vulnerable - as vulnerable as the bones. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Hmm interesting... I thought I had copied all the sliders for the organ from the stomach, I even have the same antigens affecting it... I'll have to look into that too. I may have modeled some of it after the other drive overwhelmsion organs too though, I'll have to check again. The stuff I'm working on is I finally think I have a good plan for the inhibin thing... Making it steady seems to either make them almost entirely infertile without help, once you get over a certain threshold, or doesn't do anything noticeable. So, I'm going to make it cycle up and down, this way, males are not interested all the time, and they will have certain times when they are just not in the mood... the C3 male creatures already have a thing with libido lowerer that was supposed to inhibit them from mating again right away, but its very ineffective and short-lasting... that might be improved too if it seems necessary, but it shouldn't be once I add the cycles. Also, now that other drives are out of the picture with hunger, it seems homesickness becomes a real problem for it as well, so I will add that to the hunger overwhelmsion system also, since there is already a backup chemical for it that the normal genome doesn't use. I will probably boost up the eating inhibition on the fullness response a little bit too... It is noticeable I think, but it only just barely does anything. I started slow with it in case it stopped them from getting enough nutrition, but it doesn't look like there is a danger of that... they really like to eat. My next release I think want to have some CFE Gizmo Bengals and some CFE Hardmans with the edits, as well as the Chichis. Gizmos and Bengals are both less self-sufficient and programmed than Chichis are in general, so I'd like to see how a norn like that reacts to the edits, and if it makes them noticeably smarter, and Hardmans are one of the breeds who have problems with hunger the most because of their anger, I'd like to see how they react to the new drive overwhelmsion system. I might try to get some Grendels in too. I'd like to start testing with other genuses fairly soon, and see if all this stuff makes sense for them... I think the breeding inhibition stuff probably won't fit too well on the basic Grendels and Ettins since they tend to be shorter lived than norns normally, but I will see. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
I've found in my WR Loci, an otherwise-healthy norn who has a dead Loci organ. I figured I should upload her for further research. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Hmm that's interesting, according to the functions of that organ she can't make protease, or urea, has a hard time making adrenaline if she can at all, can't make sleepase, or pistle, upatrophin, downatrophin, she also does not get more hunger for protein when muscle mass is higher... Gen 28! nice, you've been busy, looks like they are getting some extensive testing... how do they seem to be doing? So she can't (and really doesn't have to) pee, probably can't sleep but just rests, might have a hard time even doing that because she doesn't pay attention to herself when she gets tired like other norns, but can't get jumpy, probably looks weird walking up/down hills, and without protease can't process her muscles for protein, but yeah without that organ I'd think she'd be relatively healthy if a bit odd, and she probably needs a bit more protein than most norns and might be tired a lot, but seems like she'd be pretty fine. I'll definitely have a look at her. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
It might also be worthwhile gene comparing her to the original genome - seeing what's changed in 28 generations. At the moment, my norns are all chittering about how much they all dislike each other (though not as much as a regular crowd would...) and I'm down to four eggs. (Most of the time I've been at the egg limit.) I'm only playing in DS undocked and with a GB patch and a self-vending vendor added (I turned off the complain-o-meter in the empathic vendor, though), so I'm not sure if it's a true measure of norn intelligence, but the population of 14 seem to be thriving.  My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah 14 in the little ds meso would probably be in a bad mood with the crowding, good to hear they are being quieter... mine chatter sometimes, but they get bored of it pretty quickly and take care of other drives... the default genome gave them so much reward for just sitting around listening to each other complain and answering it, that they would just relentlessly talk forever and do little else. The behavior changes I put in the CFF v3 norns fix that. I've been messing with the speech and related behavior changes for a while, this is about the quietest I think is possible to make them without destroying their brains, making them totally antisocial (so they never want to look at norns), or altering scripts (the scripts really make them to talk a lot any time they pay attention to each other... and CFE norns learn pretty quickly that other norns are quite useful... In the thread for CFE development, Vampess said that to avoid those opinion loops, she would just alter a certain action script in her game so they almost never express their like/dislike opinions... she changed a script line that had a 1 in 5 chance of being called to a 1 in 100 chance). Oh, have you noticed the instincts for dealing with parents doing anything? C2 norns had stimuli to back those behaviors up rather than instincts, some of which is a bit harder to do in C3 without some of the C2 chemicals, but the babies and children are supposed to cling to and stick around their parents a bit more than normal, especially when scared, and the adolescents and older should tend to not feel like approaching their parents much. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
I haven't really seen a lot of the childhood behaviours, but that could be because of my small population size and my small ship, and that norns just like being around norns, in general. My TCR Norns |
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 KittyTikara |
The childhood behaviors really start to shine when you have them in a large metaroom. I had a fairly large group in the Freedom metaroom, and one of my Norns decided to take a trip to the other side near one of my, supposedly, killer Grendels. A little baby went with her and they lived happily along side my Grendel for quite a while. It's nice to see a more spread out population. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
That makes sense, the behaviors probably were in the game originally with large areas in mind, since I based them on behaviors from C2, which had an immense world for them to spread out around. I'm not sure if those behaviors were in C1 though, but even C1 was a pretty large area they could roam around in... I'll check that out. I'm glad to hear they are working well though. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Feddlefew |
The biodome is a good place to test behaviors, especially if food sources are spread out. |
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Malkin Manager |
It'd be helpful to investigate the gizmo edits - not necessarily the full 'you must eat in the first 10 minutes of life or you die' edits, but certainly, it'd be good to make sure that they can't survive to adolescence (the earliest possible breeding age) without eating. There are also a couple of other features (the 'bolt when hit' reflex) that would be realistic to add. My TCR Norns |
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Malkin Manager |
Something else that might be helpful is lowering the age for the breeding instinct - giving them dreams of kissing a little earlier, so that they know what to do when it's time. My TCR Norns |
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Feddlefew |
Yeah, Gizmo breeding edits are amazing. I also prefer norns that live longer and have longer pregnancies, like in the C1 range, so that they have to have semi-decent survival skills to make loads of babies. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
I agree there, the ~5 minute pregnancies typical in c3 are pretty insane, and I also tend to prefer longer lived creatures, 5 hours is barely enough time to get to know them, but I guess they really made that decision more based on how fast they can breed. It was probably much simpler for them to just shorten the life spans than try to fix all the things wrong with their insane breeding capability (I know I've been having enough trouble trying to tweak a lot of the breeding stuff) "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
I've uploaded my last group of survivors from the V3 run - their reproductive organs are damaged to the point where they won't have any more kids. Hopefully they're helpful in some way. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Working on putting out several versions of CFF 4.0 creatures, I think a hardman, chichi, bengal, and a grendel. The norns will all include many gizmo behavioral and reproductive edits as well as possibly longer pregnancies and lifespans. I am holding off on the gizmo nutritional changes for now, as I haven't quite wrapped my mind around how to tweak them correctly (and they seem to be a bit off in the normal gizmo genome, they seem to be able to starve without noticing a lot easier... like their hunger level isn't quite proportional to their nutrition level). Also, I think they should be able to survive a bit longer than childhood without food so that they can pass IQ tests... As long as they aren't able to get close to reproductive age without eating it should be good. The grendel will be the CFE version, with the fast-aging female gene deactivated, including most CFF enhancements except reproductive or lifespan factors (need feedback first before I include those). I will probably include some other tweaks as well, which I will post in a Grendel Genome Comparison post when I have decided on them. Any suggestions welcome. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Missmysterics |
This sounds fantastic, this is like all the changes I wanted to make but didn't quite have the skill. I noticed mention of gizmo edits, mainly breeding edits, what of gizmo biochemistry and instincts? I notice it being mentioned that adipose should be damaging, but if I recall correctly it's vital, so creatures need resistance to normal amounts. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
yes, adipose is vital, in the original genomes adipose was only damaging in large amounts... I believe it caused slow damage to the heart organ when over a certain threshold. I'm not really sure I can add that though, or the liver damage from alcohol. In both cases, the gene would have to be inside the organ to damage it, and that would mean shifting genes around, and major genetic incompatibility, which I want to avoid. As for biochemistry, for now I am mainly just applying some lifecycle, drive chemical, and reproductive changes, I'm holding off on the nutritional changes for now, because I want them to be able to live to pass IQ tests, and I think the Gizmo version is a bit off with their hunger levels compared to how close they are to starving... they seem to barely notice being hungry before starving to death. I do want to make sure that these can't easily live to breed without food though. I think the hunger & nutrition thing needs a little more investigation and finer tweaking. Instincts I'm a bit torn on, as I'm trying to apply these mainly as fixes to a bunch of breeds, many of which have specific instincts and behaviors of their own regarding a lot of things, which I'm not sure I want to compromise. I think I'm going to be picking and choosing here, trying for something natural where they will at least want to explore and try different things, so they can form their own personalities, but going for a minimal changes approach to major instincts, unless there is some consensus that a certain change is really needed for all the breeds. Random button pushing for boredom can probably go though... and the bolt reflex makes sense too I think. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Missmysterics |
I'm gonna have to get back into gengineering, I don't remember a lot of stuff. I think weakening a few instincts would be good, namely the eating, breeding and playing ones. I can't really say how much, I haven't tested the effect of such tweaking enough. I know I can put those instincts to considerably low levels with supervising them not seeming any harder than normal, but I'm not sure how they'd get on on their own. |
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KittyTikara |
I personally don't like weakening the eating instincts to much, even in my own Gizmo breed. I'd rather have boring Norns who know how to feed themselves on their own, then ones who can't. Then again I also love wolfling runs, so I'm a bit biased. The breeding and playing ones should be fine. My Anai Stingers have almost no boredness instincts, and they get along fairly well. Just remember to add a decrease to boredness whenever they interact with plants and critters. The original CFE genomes don't have that, and it gives them something else to interact with. Plus it's cute to watch them push plants. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog |
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 Air Guitarist kezune |
(Thanks again for the help earlier!)  I've gone ahead and added the hunger overwhelmsion genes and so far, I'm running into the same problem as Malkin. My ettins' hunger overwhelmsion organs are dying as quickly as the heart and spine. Also, I keep seeing spikes in boredom despite the Organ still being alive. It mostly works and the short spikes in boredom are very, very short lived so I wouldn't call it a problem but it's something that I observed. I also noticed that the spikes happen more frequently in very young ettins but it does still happen in adults.  I've implemented but haven't yet tested the Lactate and drowning fixes or the Overeating Inhibitor. I'll have more information for you soon. I'm sort of flip-flopping between rebalancing chemicals unrelated to your edits and fixing behavioral problems and breeding issues... There's a lot wrong with this ettin project. XD ETA: It's just hours later but I feel like I should add that my ettins are Ancient (around 5 hours old each) and their Hunger Overwhelmsion organ is still surviving at just 39 percent, just the same as their Heart, Spine Lungs, etc. The good news here is that they live their whole lives with all of their organs working. This is good news since they have the same lifespans as the default Ettins and Norns but might spell disaster if any of them managed to live for double that time. I'm curious now to see this organ at work in a Bondi since they live to around 2 hours longer than standard norns. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title] |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, trying to tweak that organ to live as long as the stomach is a bit tricky... Since it works with the drive maintenance system, I think it's best that its clock rate and reaction speeds be the same as the other drive overwhelmsion organs, because in order to work, its reaction speeds must be balanced in a certain way with the speed of the drive maintenance reactions that are constantly running and trying to regenerate the drives from the backups... The stomach has a much slower clock rate, and if I lowered that organ's clock rate to the speed of the stomach, I don't think it could outpace the drive maintenance reactions. It also tends to be activated more than the other drive overwhelmsion organs, which also shortens its life. I'm not sure how else to make it live longer though, maybe increase the prostaglandin healing rate? Are you sure the boredom spikes have to do with that organ and not some other edits or a quirk with the game engine? I'm pretty sure I observed something like those spikes in my norns well before I put in the drive overwhelmsion organ, but I've never quite been able to pin the source of them down. What's odd is the boredom seems to evaporate on its own quickly too, even without the overwhelmsion reaction going. Can you try deactivating just that organ's genes and see if the boredom spikes still occur? I have a working theory that these huge spikes in boredom actually have to do with a glitch where the creature is able to try something useless a bunch of times with very little delay in between, and getting multiple 'disappointment' stims from the game engine all at once before it stops trying. You can also try removing the increase in boredom from the stim for disappointment and see if this stops the spikes. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Air Guitarist kezune |
Sure. I've muted the organ and its genes and threw an ettin into a fresh world. Almost immediately it had its boredom spike just after playing with the Robot Toy. I didn't have time to notice it doing anything unusual between pushing the toy and doing something ineffective or useless so I don't have a clue what's caused it. As of typing, the spikes have happened four times and three times now the ettin was staring at, holding or pushing the toy. ETA: It's been 7 minutes now and boredom doesn't seem to have the same spikes anymore. Now he's pushing the toy to satisfy his boredom with no trouble. I guess he's learned that whatever he was doing to cause the spikes doesn't cure his boredom. Whatever it was, he must've been doing it imperceptively fast and there was nothing else around. I should also add that he only interacted with the toy during this time. It helped to eliminate variables. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title] |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Probably was trying to do random stuff with either the toy or itself that isn't possible to do with it, like eat it, deactivate it, drop it while not holding it, stuff like that... I find Papriko's Creature Remote Control agent very helpful to have installed when I'm testing, since it lets me see what the creature I have selected is thinking and trying at all times. Yeah, I have noticed the boredom spikes to tend to settle down and stop after a while too, I see them a lot in very young creatures, but the creatures seem to learn how to stop doing whatever causes them. I still haven't figured out exactly what action causes it though, I'm still pretty confident it's related to disappointment stimuli being pumped in many times from some impossible random actions they are for some reason able to try repeatedly in a ridiculously short time span, since, going through their genetics, that stimulus is one of the only possible ways an unmutated creature can even get boredom... the normal boredom emitter and drive maintenance reactions can't possibly account for that much that quickly, so it really must be coming in from outside though a stimulus. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Air Guitarist kezune |
That makes sense. It's interesting that they can still learn that an action doesn't work and they'll stop doing it (assuming all the wiring is where it should be). I don't think the boredom spikes are really a problem now that we've taken a closer look. I did take another look at the Organ regeneration today, though, using 4 of my ettins and 4 of your CFF creatures. Right now, I have four happy baby norns in the Freedom Project room and despite plentiful food, they don't seem to be producing prostaglandin at all. 2 Prostaglandin is theoretically produced in the bones with 1 Amino Acid and 1 Fatty Acid. Even with a Fatty Acid and Amino Acid in their systems, Prostaglandin doesn't seem to be produced or is produced so slowly that all of the organs don't get a chance to use it.  This particular norn is only 12 minutes old. I'm going to play with the Prostaglandin related half-lives and report back with what I find. ETA: I nearly forgot to add that Prostaglandin breaks down faster than it is made. Thought that might be relevant. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title] |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Prostaglandin seems to have a feedback reaction to be broken back down naturally back into fatty and amino acids as well... actually slightly faster than it is created naturally by having those in the system. The half-life for both reactions is around a second (1.1 seconds for creation, about .89 seconds for breakdown)... This means you won't normally ever see it build up, unless it comes from outside sources, then some will be broken down into nutrition, and the rest will decay pretty quickly (it has a half-life of only around 20 seconds). However, the way organ healing seems to work is if there is ANY prostaglandin in the creatures body, all organs regenerate injury (the threshold on all of them is 0), but the regeneration is analog, based on the amount of prostaglandin, so it normally is probably very slow or even nonexistent under normal circumstances, and doesn't counteract the aging of the organ much, if at all. I have a feeling that trace amounts crop up naturally, but I doubt that those amounts make much of a difference even over a creature's lifetime. Try hooking up a chemical detector to the digital output and setting it to detect chemical 94, that's a bit more precise than the x-ray... or put in the biochemistry kit. Even with injections, I have a feeling it won't normally be able to do much more than just slow the normal aging or injury of most organs... I've never seen the lifeforce of an organ go up, even if i'm constantly pumping the creature full of prostaglandin. Though it definitely did seem to be able to keep my creatures' muscles alive for a lot longer when I first got lactate poisoning (before I added the fixes for it) From what I've read, organs have both a short-term health, which reduces quickly based on injury and can heal upwards too, and a life-force, which serves as a maximum for short-term health, reduces slowly from aging, and cannot go up, but also will always tend towards the short-term health until they balance out; when life-force reaches 0 the organ is dead. So an injury, or big drop in short-term health will cause life-force to sink down more towards the short-term health level... healing, if administered quickly enough, since it raises the short-term health, should help slow or stop this sinking of life-force. There are other sliders for organs I don't totally understand, like ATP damage coefficient (seems to have to do with how much an organ is injured by having low energy/ATP) and biotick start, which I have no idea about (aging speed maybe?). Vulnerability I'm also not 100% sure about, I think it just has to do with how quickly the organ's long term life-force lowers from injury, but I could be wrong. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Air Guitarist kezune |
*feels like she's fumbling around with this whole organ and chemistry thing* Just to see what happened, I set up the half-life of Prostaglandin so that it didn't decay and there was still no buildup of the chemical in the norn and the organs didn't seem to slow their aging. "Organ 21" is still aging much faster than the Stomach. Adipose tissue did build up quite quickly, however. Haaaah. I'll be calling him "Fatty Fat Fat". If prostaglandin does work to heal the organs it still seems like it would be converted to adipose tissue far too quickly to make any changes and it doesn't seem like any of it is converted back to Prostaglandin, though the reactions are certainly there. Anyway, back to the organ side of this. I did a quick google search and found this. I know so little (and I feel like I'm getting no where investigating this issue) but I hope this helps. Quoted for your convenience: You'll see that organs have a number of sliders that can be set. The values each of these sliders represent can be seen in the bottom bar of the main genetics kit window. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title] |
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Malkin Manager |
The biochemistry set documentation has a good explanation of organ healing: Organs have become a little more complicated in C3 with the ability to set up receptors on reaction rates; instead of having several organs, each with a reaction, the rate of which is altered using a receptor, it is now possible to combine several reactions under one organ, but to have their rates independently set using receptors. A good example of this is the Liver Anabolic and Catabolic organs in C3 creatures – the reactions now grouped together in these two organs used to be spread over several organs, each with just one or two reactions inside. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, I'm testing a couple of creatures where I lowered the vulnerability of that organ way down, as well as the initial biotick, and it still seems to decay at the same rate as the other drive overwhelmsion organs, and not the stomach... there's nothing I can see that would be causing injury, no toxins or antigens in them, it's just decaying... I'm just not sure how that works... maybe if I lower the atp damage coefficient too (though both it, and the prostaglandin healing factor are already the same as the stomach's)... there are still a few things I can still try, though. On that note, it actually looks like I'm ready to release these new norns this weekend. At first I'll just put out a couple of Chichis with the edits and then work on the Gene Comparison (UHHGHH... SOOO many edits...), so I have everything straight in my notes, then I will also release a couple more sets of two from other breeds with all the edits, Hardman, Bengal, and maybe even a nice Grendel couple. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
I figured out the answer... though it's a bit annoying... looks like organ decay rate is tied directly to its base clock rate. Basically, regardless of any modifications from receptors that affect the rate of the organ's reactions, there seems to be a separate constant standard 'decay' reaction the game engine is running on each organ's life-force, this reaction has a constant base rate which the same for all organs, but is modified by the organ's clock rate slider, just like reactions inside the organ are modified by it. So, to make an organ live longer, you have to slow down its base clock rate, which slows down every reaction in it... to keep all the reactions going at the same rate as before, you would need to lower the half-life(reaction rate) sliders for each reaction just the right amount. Unfortunately, the amount you have to change the reaction speed sliders is not proportional to the amount you slow the clock rate, because the reaction rate sliders are half-lives and the clock rate is just a multiplier... So, you get some math involving natural logarithms involved to figure out what the changes should be, and then it's even more complicated than that because of how the game actually calculates the values and how the rates correspond to values on the slider... All in all, you end up having to just experiment with every slider for every reaction if you want to keep things moving at about the same rate inside the organ but change the organ's lifespan. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
Might it be worthwhile investigating how prostaglandin works in Creatures 2? My TCR Norns |
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 the1whoscreams |
I'm going to go bash my genetics kit with a hammer until it works now.(By that,I mean I'm going to see if I could do anything for the genome.) |
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 CeruleanSilver |
This is an awesome idea! Is there a way to get a hold of the most recent version? I don't think the adoptable version is the one you're talking about later in this thread. I can't wait to hear what will come next in this project! |
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Malkin Manager |
As far as I'm aware, the 0.3 version is the last version available, which can be downloaded in adoptable format here. My TCR Norns |
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