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A couple of questions   
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/4/2022  2

Hi everyone I'm new here and a long time creatures player who has recently gotten back into the series thanks to the GoG versions of these games.
I currently am experiencing a couple of issues so I have a couple of questions for fellow players.

First question.
Is the C1toDS meta room by default too cold for C1toDS creatures and other breeds to survive in?
The reason for my question is that I've noticed several of my Norns and Grendels seem to die unexpectedly even when they seem perfectly healthy and are free from danger or bacteria.

This leads on to my next question about CFF Version 1.1 creatures.

Is there any reason why the CFF Version 1.1 creatures life force plummet so rapidly? (Based on The C1toDS Toolbars Life force numbers.)

I've seen there life force plummet rapidly and nothing I can do seems to prevent death. Making it hard to progress in generations.

Same applies to the 2017 CFF creatures but at a slightly slower rate. Again is this intentional or am I missing something?

Because of these factors I'm am really struggling.
So what I'm asking is there any special breeding advice on how to get these creature to survive beyond there first few meals.
As surely I must be doing something wrong?
I really hope someone can offer advice on these issues.

Last question,
I wanted to ask if C1toDs is done or are there plans to port the Observation Kit or a more complex Object Injector based on later versions of it in Creatures 1?
As C1toDs is a fantastic piece of work and I'm forever grateful to those teams of people over the years who helped bring it to life.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  

 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/4/2022

To start with temperature has no effect at all on most creatures with the exception of those using the TWB and TCB genomes. Much of C1toDS is too cold for these creatures to live in comfortably, though the garden and house are fine, but as you aren't using TWB/TCB then this isn't really applicable.

Secondly the life force bar measures glycogen which is capped quite low in C3/DS creatures, so you will never see it rise very high. Glycogen is the storage of glucose and is depleted when blood sugar runs low.

Are there any other signs you are noticing that could be the cause of the issue? One common sudden killer is the heart attack, which 2017 creatures would be capable of but not CFF 1.1. I'd recommend picking up the autopsy report agent to help identify what could be going wrong.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/4/2022


Firstly thank you for highly detailed reply to my questions.
As regarding temperature and the life-force of creatures I can confirm I am not using TWB or TCB genomes and just the ones I mentioned in my initial post.
The temperature the information you have provided has been extremely helpful.

Though my question as to why the life-force starts at 100 and plummets far more rapidly in these two genomes remains a mystery to me?

As literally its like a count down to death and even with a steady diet of fruit seed and fats they don't seem to be able to be able to build enough strength to survive.
Signs I have noticed are hard to identify as by all means other than there life-force depleting rapidly
Though the suggestion of the Autopsy report agent sounds like a good route to investigate as it may shed more light on this matter.

Update:

Upon using the Autopsy report:
I selected sets of both male and female Ettins and Grendels of both CFF 1.1 & 2017.
My results were that all the Ettins & Grendels died of heart attacks and Low ATP within less than 22 minutes of playing. All were perfectly healthy and eating just fine before there sudden death.
There was no difference in behaviour or signs between CFF 1.1 & 2017 all lived, ate and died the same way of heart attacks and Low ATP.
The only thing I can conclude is not understanding what Low ATP means?
And how do you prevent this from repeatedly happening within my creatures?

Feedback and support are most welcome. :)

 
cyborg

cyborg



  6/5/2022

I'm no creature geneticist. Are they eating the Deathcap mushroom? It contains glycotoxin which destroys glycogen.

ATP is just energy. If any living organism runs out of ATP, they die. ATP is produced by breaking down glucose.

 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/5/2022

Hi thank you for your response as much appreciated.

I can confirm that no creatures have eaten the Deathcap mushroom as it has been removed from my world via chaos command.

As for ATP I thank you most kindly for explaining it to me as I was unfamiliar with its term and affect on creatures. So I can conclude that my creatures are not receiving enough ATP thus having a heart attack as a result. Which to me seems bonkers if they are being fed in the house and the garden in C1toDS on a diet of C3's cheese, apples and seeds as well as C1toDS honey, carrots or any other food they come across in C1toDS. In all my years playing creatures this is the first time I've come across these issues.

Can anyone recommend a type of food or diet to stop this from happening?
As I'm scratching my head on how to stop them from simply dropping dead due to low ATP.

 
Allekha

Allekha
United States  

 visit Allekha's website: Hello, Robotto blog
  6/5/2022

I tried hatching some 2017 CFFs in C12DS to see if I could help troubleshoot, and... I'm wondering if something is up with your world, because I'm not having the same issue. One of the babies was doing fine at life force 0% for a minute there before she got a snack, and they're not dropping dead like you describe.

Is it possible that your world's bacteria has evolved to produce ATP decoupler? That would lead to a very rapid death by lack of ATP.

With regards to your last question, there was a patch for C12DS in 2018, but as far as I know, nobody is planning to port over the other kits.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  

 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/5/2022

Heart attacks are caused by high levels of adipose tissue - that is fat storage - destroying the heart organ. Low ATP is a result of this, because the heart organ converts ADP into ATP (it's a cycle, the heart produces ATP which is used by the organs to function, and they produce ADP as a result)

I find it strange that even your CFF 1.1 creatures are having heart attacks, because although they have the heart attack gene their liver storage organ is non-functional by default unless they are fed alcohol (unless it's a "fixed" version but iirc one was never officially released because they would always die from heart attacks)

If you have the X ray agent and graph adipose tissue (chem 9) or look at organ health, you will see if their deaths coincide with the death of the heart organ.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/5/2022

Hello and thank you for your response,

Following your instructions I created a new world.
And hatched some 2017 Ettin and Grendel.
The Ettin lived for 1hr10
But then suddenly died of low ATP and a heart attack.
The Grendel lived for 1hr17 and died same cause.
Both of which just suddenly bit the dust and were eating fine before hand.
Both were bacteria free before death according to the holodoc.
So I'm back to the drawing board as to why this keeps happening?

Also thank you for answering my question regarding C1toDS.
Such a shame nobody is planning on porting over the other kits.

 
Vermidia

Vermidia



  6/5/2022

Autopsy Report should report only "Heart failure(Possible Heart Attack)" for non-TWB creatures, and for TWBs and anything else will also list anything else it finds chemical-wise.

If you got the latest version for download, and it really is only giving Heart Attack, that would mean they're TWB to some extent(or using chemical 110 for any reason).

At least for the 2017s for sure, it's likely diet problems. Adding more fruit and less seeds can help.


You know...wait...nevermind... wait...no...umm...maybe later...
 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/7/2022

Hi,
Firstly wow thank you ever so much for so many replies to my questions and problems.
I am truly grateful for the help and support.

Under advice from Dragoler I used the X-ray agent to monitor a pair of male and female 2017 Grendels heart organs and as expected the heart organ steadily started to deteriorate.
The male 2017 Grendels heart dropped to 00 and his life-force was at 19 at time of death he lived for 53 minutes
The Female 2017 Grendels heart dropped to 00 and her life-force was at 22 at time of death she lived for 50 minutes
So cording to the Autopsy report heart attacks are definitely taking place in the 2017 genome as expected.

I then repeated the same experiment using a pair of male and female CFF 1.1 Grendels.
I used the X ray agent once again to closely monitor the heart organs.
The male CFF 1.1 Grendels heart dropped to 00 and his life-force was at 94 he lived for 11 minutes.
The Female CFF 1.1 Grendels heart dropped to 00 and her life-force was at 92 she lived for just 12 minutes
These Autopsy report findings are even worse than my first experiment as this particular genome isn't supposed to be susceptible to heart attacks?
And I can confirm none of the creatures during these experiments were fed alcohol.

Also thank you Vermidia for your information on the Autopsy report and diet it has been most helpful. I can also confirm I am not using either TWB's or TCB creatures.

Conclusion
I'm at a loss with these two genomes as nothing I try seems to work, new world, new diet, close observation, heart monitoring and autopsy reporting.

I'm officially out of ideas and close to moving on to another breed.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  

 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/7/2022

Okay further questions, which other third party agents are you using, and where did you download that version of CFF 1.1?

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/9/2022

So for today's experiment I started off by creating a brand new world.
I added the following agents:
Autopsy report
C1toDS
C1toDS Lemon trellis
C1toDS 2018 Map fixes
C1toDS Xmas pack
C1toDS Sunflowers
Norn statistics
Miracle Heal
Multi-Agent Gold
X-ray agent

I then hatched a male and female 2017 Ettins.
I once again used the X-ray agent to monitor the male and female 2017 Ettins heart organs.
The male 2017 Ettin heart dropped to 00 while his life-force 54 he lived for a total of 1hr23.
The female 2017 Ettin heart dropped to 00 while her life-force 50 she lived for 2hrs34
But unlike previous experiments they survived long enough to father 3 generation 2 children!
Who intern went on to create 5 generation 3 children and so on into generation 4.
And after 2hrs40 I had only experienced 2 deaths, all from heart attacks.

Conclusion on the 2017 Genome.
Based on these results I would consider my problems with this genome fixed as for the first time I am able to progress in generations beyond the base parents. :)
So in this regard I am one extremely happy creatures player.

CFF 1.1
I then ran the same experiment again with male and female CFF 1.1 Ettins.
I once again used the X-ray agent to monitor the male and female CFF 1.1 Ettins heart organs
The male CFF 1.1 Ettin heart dropped to 00 while his life-force 70 he lived for just 17 minutes!
The female CFF 1.1 Ettins heart dropped to 00 while her life-force 50 she lived for just 18 minutes!
These deaths according to Autopsy report once again caused by Low ATP resulting in heart attacks.

Conclusion on the CFF 1.1
Since I am having no success with this particular genome so I have decided focus on using the 2017 genome and stop using the CFF 1.1.
Lastly I downloaded the CFF 1.1 by Evolnemesis from here on Creatures Caves.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  

 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/9/2022  1

Okay I've figured it out, the Miracle Heal agent injects all creatures full of adipose tissue making them obese, I strongly recommend you don't use this alongside CFF, 2017 or TWB/TCB as these can all die from heart attacks. Other genomes should be fine in this regard, but i'm wary about just how many chemicals this agent is injecting, and how much of each.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/10/2022  1

So after reading the suggestion by Dragoler I decided to run the experiment again this time without using Miracle Heal.
So I hatched a male and female CFF 1.1 Ettin.
The first thing I noticed was a more steady life-force at around 23.
I proceeded to observe the creatures using X-ray to monitor there hearts.
There hearts showed very little deterioration.
Unexpectedly after 35 minutes of observation I had my first CFF 1.1 birth!
And again after 40 minutes of observation I had my second CFF 1.1 birth
The CFF 1.1 Ettins continued with no deaths and breeding carried on all the way up to generation six where I ended the experiment.
This is obviously a huge improvement compared to yesterdays experiment of double death of both CFF 1.1 Ettins before the 20 minute mark.

Final conclusion
I'd like to thank Dragoler and everyone else who contributed in this post.
I would consider this matter closed as a solution has been found and achieved.

Lastly I would like to say it is a shame that Miracle Heal injects them with Adipose tissue as it is an extremely useful agent and I wish there was a version that didn't inject Adipose tissue to allow it to be used with CFF, 2017 or TWB/TCB.

Thanks to all again! :)

 
Namiraja

Namiraja
Germany  


  6/10/2022

I'm pretty sure that change would not be that hard to make. If nobody else comes around to do it, I'll try to find some time (or more like motivation ...) to do that later or on the weekend.
 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/10/2022

Honestly if you or someone else could create another version of this agent it would be extremely helpful as I'd be very grateful. :)
 
Namiraja

Namiraja
Germany  


  6/10/2022

I send you a message with a link to the modified agent. I won't post the link here, since it's a private server, but I dropped the agent in the Caos Coding Cave Discord (agentdump), too.

I only did a quick check if I can inject it into my world and if it does what it's supposed to do. Let me know if there are issues.

Sooo … should I upload it here on caves or how do we handle agent modifications?

edit: forgot to mention, it's the same agent number, so remove miracle heal before injecting this one

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  

 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/10/2022

I think all chemicals injected by the agent should be reviewed with our current understanding of genetics, and the modern genomes in mind as well, as adipose tissue is not the only problematic chemical it injects (life chem has also been reported to be a part of the cocktail). An updated version of Miracle Heal made this way may end up quite different to the original version.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Namiraja

Namiraja
Germany  


  6/10/2022

I removed adipose tissue injection and life, reduced the feeding effect, got rid of the energy sub chemicals and only left atp in and such. It now removes tryptamine for cffs and adds some platelets for wound healing for twb. Still would not spam this agent.
It's not worth it for me to spend too much time on it, since it overlaps with my work in progress anyway and I'd rather spend the time on that one then.

 
lonelysmile

lonelysmile



  6/10/2022  1

I can confirm the new Agent works as you intended it to do and so far testing of it has had minimal issues. Regarding the chemicals it injects I agree with Dragoler that modern genomes should be considered in the creation of a new Miracle Heal. Or a new agent to replace it.

Thanks again for your work. :)

 


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