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Lactate Cure?   
Minx

Minx
United States  


  9/1/2012

Hey friends, I'm tinkering with Creatures 3 again and have come across something odd to me.

Once a creature has gained any amount of lactate is there no way to get rid of it? This has happened three times now from specific genetic mutations, and once the problem has been resolved, the lactate remains, continuing to destroy the muscle organ. I've injected prostagladin, vitamin C, anabolic steroid and straight-up muscle tissue--all to no avail. Any suggestions?


I want to create a C3 breed someday..

Formally defectiveminx.

 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  9/1/2012

targ norn chem 1 -1


It won't undo the damage done but it should get rid of all the lactate in the system.

 
Minx

Minx
United States  


  9/1/2012

I will check again, but I don't see it going away or any gene that would make it do so. Perhaps because she gains lactate in such an unusual way (coldness turns into coldness backup + lactate in the painly-overwhelmism organ) that her system cannot tell itself to get rid of it in the proper way.

Do you know the specific gene that would react with lactate to make it go away? Or maybe the specific chemical that makes it go away?

This is driving me crazy because it has reduced many of my norns to 0% muscle organ. I'm trying to breed this mutation out of them, but it's quite annoying until then.


I want to create a C3 breed someday..

Formally defectiveminx.

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  9/1/2012

Lactate is mentioned 3 times in the Civet genome - once where lactate itself damages the muscle organ, once where muscle toxin breaks down to form lactate, and once in the half-life gene - an infinite half-life. It seems that once a unit of lactate is made, it's staying put, damaging the muscle organ, for the entirety of your norn's life.

My TCR Norns
 
Wiimeiser

Wiimeiser
Australia  


  9/1/2012

What is lactate? Is it milk or something? Why not asbestos?

Hashikin ko Tyni Kong Taria Haju'Rumia'an Klodz'Proddi. Terdish oxen saur yessi atai Kongo Dolpik!
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  9/1/2012  1

According to Wikipedia, lactic acid and its anion form, lactate were first discovered in milk, and thus named after milk. Later it was discovered that muscle activity also makes lactate - it is this muscle activity which the lactate in Creatures 3 approximates.

The name of lactic acid which actually tells you something about its structure is 2-hydroxypropanoic acid - the 'prop' means it's a three-carbon chain, the 'oic acid' part means that you've got an oxygen double-bonded to the last carbon and an OH single-bonded to the last carbon, and the 2-part means you've got an OH bonded to the carbon next to the COOH, and all the rest of the bonds are taken up with H. Quite often, you'll see an R or an S or a D or an L written next to bottles of 2-hydroxypropanoic acid, this tells you what chirality they've got.

Now, the H in the COOH is weakly bonded to the rest of the structure, and will leave and rejoin the structure, producing lactate and a H+, which is what causes a fair bit of mischief in real biological systems.

Lactate is an organic chemical, based on carbon. Asbestos is a silicate mineral, based on silicon, which isn't part of any known living system - there would apparently be various stability problems with silicon-based life forms. Asbestos is not a byproduct of the body, as lactic acid is. :) The reason why asbestos hurts people is that it's sharp - it cuts up the lungs.


My TCR Norns
 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  9/1/2012

If you know what gene is responsible for the mutation, you can just correct it. Or add a chemical reaction eg 1 Vitamin C + 1 Lactate = 1 None + 1 None which would allow you to cure it with Vitamin C.
 
Minx

Minx
United States  


  9/2/2012

I am starting to figure that out. My norn is now three hours hold, and lactate is still at very high levels with no end in sight. I would normally not correct such a mutation because I'm doing a selective breeding project, but it seems like there was an oversight somewhere in the creation of this chemical.

Nearly every chemical list I come across labels it as "neutral" and though it hurts the muscles, it makes the creature aware that something needs to change. I hardly believe that a neutral chemical would have an infinite half-life and kill the muscle organ within (or less than!) an hour of life. There should be a big, scary DANGER sign!! :D I know it won't kill them, but it sure does mess 'em up.

Thanks for the insight guys. Posting another question in a new topic if you want to tackle that one. ;)


I want to create a C3 breed someday..

Formally defectiveminx.

 
InsanityPrelude
For Science!

InsanityPrelude
United States  


  6/30/2013  1

Yeah, I think it might have been a CL oversight. It doesn't stick around forever in real animals, why should it in creatures?

The lazy fix for it I edited into most of my genfiles was to give it a proper half-life (~30 seconds I think, could probably stand to be faster since there's no reactions removing it.)

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/23/2014

I'm having this problem too, I noticed it after a bacteria gave muscle toxin to several of my norns, and i watched their muscles die with nothing i tried to do helping. Seems to me that there's no reason for the lactate it turns into to stick around forever, especially since muscle toxin is not very uncommon, and, as was pointed out, lactate doesn't last forever in real animals. I'm guessing that since there is no half-life, they intended for some kind of reaction to get rid of it.

In real animals, lactate is a byproduct of the conversion of pyruvate to ATP when there is low oxygen in the blood, like during strenuous activity, having problems breathing, or fighting off some kinds of illness, and gets converted back to pyruvate when they slow down and have plenty of oxygen in their blood. It's responsible for the burning you feel in your muscles while working out, and the burning in your lungs if you are holding your breath too long or drowning.

So, there should be reactions in their circulatory systems that get rid of lactate when their oxygen is high enough, and create it when it gets low... probably a pain emitter when lactate builds up to a high point.. hmm time to whip out the genetics kit.

This means creatures with breathing problems or circulation problems should have a problem converting it back, and this also means that a drowning creature should notice pain from this buildup pretty quickly, more reason to move, which is also realistic, and a nice side effect of adding this reaction... However, with these changes, a creature should be able to get rid of it pretty quickly most of the time, and it shouldn't build up at all unless they get muscle toxin, have heart problems, or are having trouble breathing.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/19/2014  1

According to this, in C2 lactate and pyruvate were converted into each other as needed...

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/19/2014  2

Cool! I knew there was a missing reaction, especially since they gave lactate the longest half-life so it wouldn't go away on it's own... so it seems that the reaction cycle for lactate was just never finished in C3... they only did part of it, and I knew it made no sense that it would just eat away their muscles and never go away... which is why I want to fix it. I'll have to look at some c2 genomes and look at how they did it, so I can recreate it.

Male reproductive systems were also not fully completed in the C3 genome either, there are unimplemented chemicals like inhibin, totally illogical behavior of their chemicals, and logical things like stress affecting them are missing... You can tell they are not complete because if you look, there is some weird fiddling that goes on in some of the breeding and action scripts which kind of fakes some stuff to get males to breed. The C3 genome really had a lot of things about it that were rushed and seemed kind of last minute or only partially done.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/19/2014  1

The way they're describing it, it sounds like when your norn was drowning, it would convert pyruvate to lactate, and when the norn got out of water, the lactate would be converted back to pyruvate. There's another article here which talks about it.

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/19/2014

Yeah, when it was drowning or probably also a little bit in hot environments or very high adrenaline levels when its lungs are laboring, or when the norn has heart or lung problems and its circulatory system isn't efficient enough (and of course muscle toxin creates a buildup, which is supposed to be temporary)... either way, putting in a reaction or two should make the system behave properly. I see in that article I was also probably right about the pain it should be making. I really should just be able to copy the reactions for it from a C2 genome, since the biochemistry is otherwise pretty much the same as C3's. Maybe it will make them a bit smarter about drowning (or at least stop them from deciding they would like to take a nice nap underwater so often...)

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/24/2014

Okay, I've found the relevant genes for the whole reaction in C2:

These genes regulate the actual Pyruvate-Lactate cycle:
Reaction #135: Oxidation of Pyruvate:
1 Pyruvate + 3 Oxygen -> 2 Energy + 3 Dissolved Carbon
This gene exists in C3, and does the same thing it does in C2, turns pyruvate into energy, as long as there is plenty of oxygen around.

Reaction #136: Fermentation
1 Pyruvate + 1 Nothing -> 1 Lactate + 1 Nothing
This gene turns excess Pyruvate into Lactate. The less oxygen around, the more Pyruvate gets used in this reaction rather than the other one, and so the more Lactate will build up.

Reaction #137: Oxidation of Lactate
1 Oxygen + 1 Lactate -> 1 Pyruvate + 1 Oxygen
If there is enough oxygen, turns Lactate back into Pyruvate, so it can be used and become energy. This makes sure Lactate doesn't stick around once the creature is getting enough oxygen.

This next group of genes cause the muscle damage, and 'feeling of suffocation':
Receptor #70: Lactic Acid Causes Muscle Pain
Lactate -> Injury (ORGAN:Muscles)
This gene exists in C3, and does the same thing in C3 as in C2 (except for the fact that in C3, Lactate never leaves the body, so this reaction eventually is fatal for the muscle organ if there is ANY lactate in the body)... the more lactate in the body, the faster the muscle degenerates.

Receptor #49: Lactate Receptor
Lactate -> (Lobe 9, cell 0)
This allows a high level of lactate to trigger a cell in the 'Sandrabellum', which is a lobe in C2 which is just used for emitters and receptors, and regulates the internal chemistry. This lobe corresponds directly to the C3 'Floating Receptor-Emitters' and has the same function.

Emitter #30: Suffocation Emitter
Lobe 9, cell 0 -> Suffocation (drive chemical)
This is an emitter for 'Suffocation' which is emitted when enough lactate triggers the above receptor. Suffocation is a drive in C2, so a suffocating C2 norn basically is just noticing a drive increasing, which tells it something bad is happening (and hopefully will make it decide to go in the other direction if it walked into the water...)

Emitter #47: Adrenaline from Excess Suffocation.
Suffocation (Drive) -> Adrenaline
This emitter gives the creature additional adrenaline if it is starting to suffocate. It should skyrocket the adrenaline levels after a fairly short time drowning (which should make it hard to sleep and encourage fleeing).

It seems like *Most* of this can be replicated in C3... Chemical regulation of the amount of lactate in the body should be simple by just adding the two reactions shown in #136 and #137, and those *should* be able to be added exactly as shown with no ill effect.

The 'feeling of suffocation' will be a bit harder to recreate, since C3 creatures don't have a suffocation drive, although 'increase suffocation drive' + 'increase in adrenaline' should be able to be approximated by just increasing fear in C3... The creature will notice something unpleasant is happening as soon as it starts drowning, and it should discourage the action that got it there, as well as make it forget about any other drives (other drives are put on hold for fear or pain in C3).

With fear, the creature's impulse will be to think whatever it's doing is probably bad, and it might be a good idea to flee from whatever it was paying attention to when it started drowning, which is probably what we want (for example, if it went into the water after a ball, it will have a tendency to want to retreat from it once it starts drowning... If it was just walking right, it will think walking right is probably a bad idea...) Increasing adrenaline should not be necessary, since in C3, high drives do not increase adrenaline directly like they do in C2 (in C3, this effect is achieved indirectly in other ways). Also, one of adrenaline's actions is to increase the speed of fear generation, which we are already doing here.

So, theoretically, here is the solution: Add the following Genes (all together at the end of the Genome, this should prevent sliders, and allow creatures a much better chance to inherit all the relevant genes together). All these genes should activate from birth for both sexes.
(Note: these are NOT tested yet... I will post results)
The first two are the reactions to process the Lactate-Pyruvate cycle. They will generate lactate when the creature isn't getting enough oxygen, and will also save their muscles from dying to it. If that's all you want, you can just add the first two genes... The next two genes use an unused Floating Receptor-Emitter loci to generate a feeling of fear while suffocating. These second two aren't really necessary to save your creatures from lactate poisoning, but they should make the creature react more realistically to suffocation, and hopefully help it to save itself if drowning.

Reaction: Fermentation
1 Pyruvate + 1 Nothing -> 1 Lactate + 1 Nothing

Reaction: Oxidation of Lactate
1 Oxygen + 1 Lactate -> 1 Pyruvate + 1 Oxygen

Chemical Receptor: Lactate Detector
Organ: Creature
Tissue: Circulatory
Locus: Floating Receptor/Emitter 31
Chemical: Lactate
Thresh: 16 (.063)
Nominal: 0
Gain: 255 (1)
(Digital)


Chemical Emitter: Suffocation causes Fear
Organ: Creature
Tissue: Circulatory
Locus: Floating Receptor/Emitter 31
Chemical: Fear
(Digital)
Sample Rate: 6 (processed every 7 ticks)
Gain: 80 (.306)
Thresh: 135 (.522)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/24/2014

Wow, this is amazing! :D How fast do the fermentation and oxidation reactions occur in C2? Are they about the same as each other?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/24/2014

Ah, okay, I did forget to post the reaction rate sliders, and those will probably need some experimentation to get right in c3, since the pyruvate cycle is still a bit different in c3 because c3 uses ATP/ADP as well as energy... I will post values once I test the genes.

in C2, the reaction for oxidation of lactate is instant: 0, (decay 0 seconds)... you are probably safe setting this slider to 0 in C3 also, though decay won't be totally instant in C3, and the lactate will have a halflife of around 50 ms. Still, oxygen should end up being used for this reaction before it's used for pretty much anything else, which makes sense biologically (the creature can't use oxygen to make energy until it can process pyruvate properly again).

The reaction for fermentation is relatively slow in C2: 72 (full decay approx 2.5 minutes) Since rates for different slider values are different in c3, and reaction speeds in C3 show half lives and not full decay rates, and the pyruvate oxidation reaction also goes at a different rate in c3 creatures, using the same rate for this will take some math, and might not make sense and need some experimentation....


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/25/2014  1

Thanks! :) The Enhanced Chichi Norns also had a few anti-drowning edits you might be interested in. I can't remember what they were, but I remember that they were sophisticated.

Interestingly enough, newish research seems to indicate that lactate isn't that bad.


My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/25/2014

Thanks, I'll look at those too... and Yes, it really isn't that bad... C3's broken incomplete reaction for it makes it seem a lot worse than it is... In C2 and in real animals, it mainly acts as a 'pyruvate backup', and holds pyruvate (and thus, the energy it becomes) in reserve while the body is low in oxygen. In real animals, it can also be converted to energy, but more slowly than the pyruvate reaction... Basically, it acts as a reserve battery... Lactate leaves the body pretty much instantly and gets converted back to pyruvate once the body has enough oxygen to process it again.

The muscle breakdown in creatures is not permanent either (as long as the reaction is not broken like in the normal C3 genome...) because any kind of activity helps rebuild the muscles. The temporary weakness and burn that lactate causes in real animals is due to metabolic byproducts of the lactate reaction that actually act as a safety mechanism to prevent damage to the muscles... This 'burn', temporary weakness, and slowing of the energy reaction in the muscles which lactate buildup causes makes it so you don't overexert yourself and cause too much permanent damage when there is not enough fuel to go around.

Also, note that lactate is NOT responsible for the pain you feel hours or days after working out (that is due to actual little tears you made in your muscles)... The lactate is just responsible for a temporary burning sensation when you are doing anaerobic exercise like running or lifting, and the temporary sudden weakness and 'floppiness' you can get that lets you know you are reaching your limit.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/25/2014  1

I've added in an instant-lactate-oxidation gene to the CFE Gizmo Full genome by Kezune - you can find the lactate-oxidating version here.

While my test norn does experience some degradation of the muscle organ, it's nothing like the wasting away of before.


My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/25/2014

I just thought of something else about this... while the lactate oxidation gene will help save your creatures muscles when exposed to muscle toxin (or lactate from other sources), having the fermentation gene that produces lactate as well may also be very helpful to creatures.

Have you ever had a creature you saved from drowning but it still died shortly afterwards anyway? This is because its energy supply is so depleted from not having oxygen while it was suffocating that it can't recover enough ATP in time to stop its organs from shutting down. Without lactate in its system and that fast reaction to convert it into pyruvate, the creature basically has to rely on its normal digestive processes to get energy again... it has no good short-term backup for energy. Lactate actually can provide this backup.

With that lactate oxidation gene, having lactate in their systems after suffocation will actually allow them much better recovery. It will give them a ready supply of pyruvate that kicks in right away as soon as they get oxygen again, instantly ready to be turned into energy. Lactate buildup from the fermentation reaction is fairly slow, and will only occur when the creature is suffocating, so any damage to muscles should be minimal, and is well worth it, since that backup energy can easily save the creature's life.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/27/2014

What's the pyruvate oxidation rate in C2?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/27/2014

The pyruvate oxidation reaction in C2 is:
Reaction #135: Oxidation of Pyruvate
1 Pyruvate + 3 Oxygen -> 2 Energy + 3 Dissolved Carbon
Reaction Speed: 40 (Approx. 10 secs from full to 0)


In both games, Pyruvate also converts back into fatty acid and glucose for short term storage (and from those, if not needed as energy sources, to glycogen and adipose for long term storage) as part of the liver function. But in C3 there are some other conversions using some of these products to create ATP.

The corresponding reaction in C3 is:
Reaction #39: Pyruvate to Energy
1 Pyruvate + 3 Oxygen -> 6 Energy + 3 Dissolved Carbon
Reaction Speed: 17 (half-life approx. 269 ms)


The reason why more energy is created in C3 for the same amount of pyruvate, is that energy is also converted to ATP in C3 creatures in another reaction, while C2 creatures do not use ATP at all, also there are other reactions which create energy for C2 creatures, for which the corresponding reactions in C3 creatures just produce ATP.

The rate calculation for C3 is a bit more complex, if you want to try and compare them directly, because of how in C1/C2 genetics, reaction speeds (and even the half-life genes) show full elimination time instead of actual half-lives... But, for the sake of comparison, a C3 creature will go from 100% to < 0.5% with this reaction in about 2 seconds, making this reaction approximately 4-5 times faster in C3 creatures.

Although again, because there are other things using both the pyruvate and the energy created by this reaction in both games, comparing these rates by themselves could be misleading if you are trying to get a feel for the respective rates of their metabolism or how fast their total usage of pyruvate is. So, finding an appropriate speed of fermentation for C3 so lactate builds up in their bodies at approximately the same rate as in C2 could be a little tricky and take some experimentation, although it's not a critically bad thing if fermentation is a bit too fast or slow...

Too slow means at worst they won't have as good a backup supply of pyruvate as a C2 creature after suffocating, but they will still be better off afterwards than other C3 creatures without the gene... Too fast will only mean they may take more muscle damage than a C2 creature while suffocating, but have a much better chance of survival after suffocating because of the lactate giving them a very good instant backup source of pyruvate. Assuming the muscle organ survives (which it should unless the buildup is VERY fast), they should have no problem recovering any extra muscle damage quickly with a bit of protein and exercise.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/3/2014

Hmm... getting lactate to build up properly when oxygen is low is harder than I thought in C3. Turning it to pyruvate with that oxidation is simple, but getting it to go the other way and get fermentation to work right is another story... Annoying too since it really would help creatures survive drowning longer and help them recover faster.

Looks like the reactions involving pyruvate and glycolosis are not as simplified in C3... I can't just have lactate build up when there is no oxygen, because it doesn't happen in C3, it can get low, but never low enough to make that simplified oxidation-fermentation cycle from C2 work without them dying because there's more going on now in the cycle (it's a lot more realistic in C3)... I need some kind of enzyme to act as a go-between to direct the reaction one way or the other... I can probably fit the missing piece with a receptor-emitter pair... time to study...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 


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