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Development Forum |
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| Derivative/Similar Agents | |
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Lurhstaap
   

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3/10/2016 | |
Since I've begun trying to raise Amphibian Draconians, I'd like some more agents for them. Among other things, it'd be really nice to have an aquatic version of the fire ants. It seems most practical to simply use the code for the fire ants, edit it to be able to work underwater, use new sprites and a new name and suchlike. It seems like recoding it from the basic ant is more or less reinventing the wheel - can different people really do the same basic thing in such different ways that protecting one's own code makes sense? I'm definitely willing to do it from scratch (or, rather, from the basic ant) if that's correct etiquette, but I'd rather not do the extra work if I don't have to.
Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage" |

GimmeCat
  
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3/10/2016 | 1 |
Proper etiquette in this case is probably something like: ask the Fire Ant author(s) for permission to create an aquatic version using their scripts as a base. If they don't respond/deny the request, then you will have to create the agent based off the original ant scripts (or, if you're insane, from scratch).
That's in theory.
In practice, you're probably going to want to look at the FA's scripts anyway, to get an idea of what needs to be done. If you're going for identical features, then realistically it's going to be tough to come up with scripts that are markedly different from the FAs ones. You can shuffle a few things around, but most of it will still resemble the FAs. That's okay, but be warned: some people can be... touchy about such things.
So my advice would be this: to read the FA scripts as an example, but give your new ant agent a few different features or behaviours that the FAs don't share. And don't just copy-paste parts of their scripts. That way, you've created something similar without stepping on anybody's toes. |

Malkin
     Manager

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3/11/2016 | |
You might also want to look at the ant's coding in Vampess' Norn Woodland Fix Patch, too.
My TCR Norns |

Lurhstaap
   

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3/11/2016 | |
Hmmm, OK. Thanks for the advice, guys. Since there may be language problems with the fire ant creator, I think I'll just use it as a general reference and start from the basic ants. Thanks!
Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage" |

Moe
  

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3/14/2016 | 2 |
Unless you're blatantly stealing someone else's work and pretending it's your own, it's not an issue in my opinion.
Adapting and recreating based on someone else's work is the essence of creative liberty and innovation. Unfortunately we've been stifled in the past century by corporate dynasties destroying that creative freedom and constraining innovation by extending copyright law and redefining what ownership means. It's bred a society of possessiveness, selfishness, envy, greed, and ultimately stagnation.
There are legitimate reasons not to re-use someone else's work, or why an author doesn't want other people to do so. Sometimes it's not complete, or buggy, or so complex that it's not advised to mess with it.
You should consider these things before using someone else's assets. Asking to use their work is nice etiquette, but ultimately it might not be possible, and it shouldn't matter as long as you properly credit the original author for what they accomplished.
Ideally you should learn how to code and make the object yourself, but if you want a variant of someone else's agent, especially something as small as changing its death conditions and making it water tolerant, I say go for it. Besides, modifying existing agents is excellent experience towards learning to code yourself.
A lot of people disagree with me on this issue, so at the very least, I for one permit anyone to re-use my work as long as I'm credited. (Until such a time as more than 50% of the used asset has been significantly modified. At that point it's hardly even mine anymore... )
But I will caution people on using any of C2toDS's assets, as some of those scripts are really complicated or incomplete in some way. But if you can understand them, and want to use or improve upon them, by all means. The more content in the community the better! |

Lurhstaap
   

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3/14/2016 | 1 |
As a working artist, I have a lot of respect for the concept of intellectual property and the right of a creator to protect their creation. However I do also think it's possible to take it too far and that unfortunately it often is. Especially in the art community. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone on deviantART or another similar site blow their top because, say, someone else's character has pink wings and THEIR character has pink wings too ITS COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT OMGZ.
Hence my question in the original post about how differently it's really possible for two coders to go about doing the same task in the same context. If there are lots of ways I could make the equivalent of aquatic fire ants, then it makes sense for the original creator of the fire ants to defend their code and for me to use it as reference only for one possible way to achieve the goal. If, on the other hand, there are really only one or two ways to do the thing, then I don't see how anyone can really claim the code itself. The IDEA, absolutely - whether I directly use the original Fire Ant code or not, whatever 'aquatic fire ant' agent I make will give full credit to the original for the inspiration, because otherwise I might as well be ripping it off even if I didn't use a single line of the original script. But the code itself?
I guess to me it's like the difference between any given drawing of a character and the idea of the character. I can draw a picture of a character I own the trademarks and such to, and sell that picture, and the buyer owns the picture. But I still own the character. To me the code is like the picture and the idea is like the character. People can make characters similar to mine without it being a ripoff of my idea, but if they were inspired by my character an acknowledgement of that fact would be nice.
Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage" |

Moe
  

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3/15/2016 | 1 |
If I'm not mistaken "ideas" can't actually be copyrighted. I'm pretty sure only implementations of an idea can be claimed (then again this probably varies country to country, and perhaps even by medium). So they could maybe claim the manner in which the ants were coded, but not the idea itself. And that makes sense since nobody has ever had a truly original idea in their life. Everything is a derivation of the world around us, and most things build upon the existing ideas of others. Hence all my rambling about innovation.
It's pretty gray though especially when it comes to art, and I'm by no means a copyright lawyer. Most people just go by the 50% rule. If it changes more than 50% it's not yours anymore. That's my motto. And let's not even get started on whatever GULA covers CAOS code and whether implementations can even be claimed as IP since the language itself is property of the Creatures series...
To answer your question, there are a near infinite number of ways to code the ants, but why re-invent the wheel? And the actual mechanism that controls how the ants behave in and out of water is pretty straightforward. Sure you can reword it several different ways in CAOS, but at the end of the day they are either dying or living. KILL OWNR/KILL TARG. That's either there or it isn't. And the code that detects the water can only be written a few different ways, each time checking RTYP 8 and/or 9. That's it. It's no magical innovation. The only thing that changes is where you put your DOIFs and ENDIs, and how you target the agent itself.
I say as long as you're giving proper credit to the original author's work, you're good to go.
"Hey there I modified these ants to live underwater. Huge thanks to _____ for making the original fireants! Check them out here[insert link]!"
I can't imagine any sane developer freaking out and attacking you for that. It would be different if they were monetizing the ants, because your "superior" water-loving ants might shut them out of the market, but that just isn't the case here. They receive no benefit but credit, and credit in this case is not lost.
I see it happen all the time in modding communities for other games. In fact I've seen people dig up old community member's work and update it for new patches when a new release breaks it but the original author is MIA. They just credit the original author and move on with life. See Space Engineers and their conversions from DX9 to DX11 for great examples, or Starbound's Creative Mode mod. That's been usurped and updated about 3 times now...always linking back to the original work and giving credit where it's due. In some cases the original mod authors have officially given the jobs over to other people because their lives are too busy or they don't play the game anymore.
It's all fair play and under the understanding that whatever is good for the community and fun for the players, is the right thing to do. After all, isn't that why we create?
And THANK GOD they weren't afraid to do so! Some of the mods they updated have been the best and most popular mods of all time. I would shudder to think what damage would occur in the community if they had the possessive beliefs I've seen espoused in ours (not referring to you, but to previous skirmishes I've had on these forums about this issue. lol)
But it's up to you and I don't pass judgement for your decisions. If you go to code it yourself, great! You'll learn a lot. If you want to modify it and give out credit, I see nothing wrong with that. Whatever you feel is right, is right for you. Just be sure to give credit where credit is due.  |
 Sanely Insane
RisenAngel
     Manager

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3/15/2016 | |
Kind of tangential to the discussion, but I feel I should note the agent being discussed (the fire ants) are heavily based on the default C3 ants.
If that means anything.
~ The Realm ~
Risen Angel's Creatures Blog
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Lurhstaap
   

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3/15/2016 | |
No, ideas themselves can't be copyrighted, you're correct. I was referring more to etiquette among artists/creators than the law when I spoke about that.
I'm fine with the do-what-you-need-to-do-but-make-sure-you-credit system, personally, but I wanted to make sure what the etiquette was here in the Creatures Community. I like it here and I'd rather not step on any toes if I can avoid it! Thanks for your help and advice. 
Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage" |
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