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Prometheus & Athena   C3DS Norn   evolnemesis | 5/7/2014  log in to like post  3

spritesChiChi Norns
These two are the next step in evolution of the CFF Breed. (Creatures Full of Fixes 0.2). Feedback is encouraged, this is a test breed. They have the testosterone-inhibin changes, drowning response, and lactate changes of the base 0.1 CFF ChiChis listed in Breeds, plus the following additional features:

- They will understand and react to 'yes' and 'no' spoken by the Hand (they get the same punishment/reward and drive changes as a tickle or slap, except no pain and wounding from 'no').

- They have parental instincts starting after birth to run to parents when afraid and stick by them more, and once adolescence kicks in, they will begin to get the instinct to leave their parents and stay away from them more (this won't start kicking in until they sleep after reaching adolescence).

- They are affected by light levels, and will tend to get sleepy more quickly in darker areas.
Barb | 5/13/2014  log in to like post

I had the same issue with Prometheus saying Prometheus dislike Athena. I repeated the phrase Prometheus love Athena quite a few times and then he started saying it himself.

They are not yet adult, will see if it helps.

Edited to add: it worked, they had an egg without much of any encouragement from me except a little hoverdoc boost.
kidhedera | 5/12/2014  log in to like post

I had a play with these two cuties, and there's definitely a lot I like about them. They seem smarter and more sociable but not as annoyingly chatty as my CFE/Gizmo norns. They navigate very well.
Very promising, its just a pity they are so hard to breed. Sounds like you are on your way to fixing that though.
Well done!
evolnemesis | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Well, that's good, I was looking in the State rules in the brains, and there is an inhibitor in there that actually stops creatures from wanting to do good actions like pushing to creatures they have strong negative feelings towards, and stops anyone but grendels from doing bad actions to creatures they have very positive feelings towards. (Grendels can love someone and still hit them, unlike other species... I guess it's just part of who they are... "Graah love Oogh!" <SMACK!>;) So he can't really hate her if he's pushing back... he's just kind of indifferent. He still might come around.
Nutter | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Ah, ok. I think he was pushing her back - there was a lot of kissing and giggling going on, and if she moved away he'd be all "prometheus approach norn" which couldn't have been prompted by liking or sex drive so... he maybe associates her with loneliness drop or boredom drop? I've got them in C2-to-DS, and he had a couple of hefty falls, so he maybe associated the pain of them with her, if he was looking at her when he landed.
evolnemesis | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Yeah, the sex drive drop is probably being triggered by the script trying and failing to mate... the 'I am fertile' is probably being false for him because his hormones are just a bit too low, and that would cause a big drop in sex drive when the script tries to kisspop.
Feddlefew | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Norns really don't like getting woken up, I've found, so that may be why they don't like eachother.
evolnemesis | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Well, I think what's going on is that him being low in testosterone makes him less exciting to her... I think him not having enough pheromone or something... either that, or it's just the fact that he probably isn't reciprocating much when she tries to kiss him... My test male was practically never interested, and the female would feel friendly, then kind of walk up to him and maybe try kissing him, then be like 'meh..' and not be interested any more right away. I'll investigate their cycles, but what's going on is inhibin slows down his gonad when his testosterone starts to get high, and that slows down all his hormones and pheromones. Possibly that lower level of testosterone or pheromone makes him not trigger the things in the breeding script that makes the kisspop happen. I'd think it might be the same thing that would happen if she tried kissing a young norn that couldn't mate.. she'd get excited, but then when the kisspop would happen in the script, it fails, and lowers the sex drive.

I was able to get mine to mate just as they entered adulthood by lots of encouragement. but after that, he never even seemed interested, and she lost interest in him pretty fast any time she would think of trying.

I think really it just comes down to tweaking the inhibin emitter or the receptor for it... As far as I can tell, their reproductive systems work the same as in c2, with the same cues and everything, just the reaction rates and hormone levels are different, so with the right tweaks it should be working.

But yeah, no I didn't change those genes... all the changes are documented in the latest genome comparison which I put it up on the site today, comparing their genome to CFE chichis... Besides my speech-altered norns don't really tend to dislike each other, if anything they are a lot more friendly with each other because they get lonely easier without the loneliness drop from hearing each other speak... He seems a bit quirky though, when he first saw Athena, the first thing he did was go up to her and start smacking her nonstop, which I don't think I've ever seen a baby do, lol... but their friend or foe lobes wouldn't have been preserved in the export... it is odd though, he really just seems to not like her for no good reason at all, lol.

Also, I think 'dislike' is actually the default, for when their opinion is neutral or negative... still you'd think after her kissing him a lot he'd start liking her more. Does he even try to push her back?
Nutter | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Yes, it was those two genes I wondered if you'd changed - I thought not, because the "prometheus dislike athena" was getting monotonous! :)

They're pretty sensible norns though, they've had no problems eating or sleeping. Sex drive really does seem to tank really quickly, and I'm not sure what was doing it; when they sleep, if drops faster than sleepiness, but even when they were awake and kissing, sometimes it would fall almost as fast as if they'd kisspopped, but they hadn't. Very odd. It was almost like something else was triggering the sex drive drop.
evolnemesis | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Definitely much harder to get them to breed, you might have to pump them full of aphrodisiacs, lol... like I said I might have to dial the inhibin thing back a bit. Some of the sliders were set arbitrarily, with rates and stuff pretty much copied from C2 (with some conversions since reaction speeds and halflives work a bit differently in c3)... But hormone levels and production are also a bit different in c3, so figuring out what they should be was tricky, so I just set them as is until enough testing was done for me to figure out how to tweak them..

Bibbling to each other, especially expressing opinions, are actually forced by game scripts randomly any time they are paying attention to each other. Answering opinions and giving advice also seem to be based on attention but they are forced 100% of the time to answer by scripts when they are paying attention to the speaker.

The looking at each other a lot thing is when they are thinking 'approach norn', and has to do with a default stimulus gene which tells them that other norns are fascinating to just stare at, and that any time they are approaching, whether or not they are moving, it is automatically fun and emits boredom reduction regularly.

I have had some real success with editing this stuff in some of my own genomes that I think are quite effective and helps their personalities a lot though. I can put those edits in, it should make them stare a lot less and be a good bit quieter. They will tend to not answer each other or express opinions quite as much (they still will, just less, also they will answer creatures they like more often than creatures they don't)...

Basically there are two genes that make the real difference.. the stimulus for 'heard other creature speak' (its effect on drives, even if silenced, has the effect of forcing them to pay enough attention to any speaking norn in earshot that they will have to answer... I disable it, and then norns only answer other norns they WANT to pay attention to, especially ones they like more or are already looking at for some other reason, or ones that are talking about something they are specifically interested in at the moment) and the stimulus for 'approach' (it gives them a pretty large boredom reduction reward for just staring at or walking to other norns... I change this to a slight boredom increase, since they already get a very good reduction in loneliness for it, and a boredom decrease any time they are walking).. this makes them stare at each other a lot less, which also cuts down on the bibbling, but it doesn't make them antisocial, they still like to sleep together and follow each other...
Feddlefew | 5/7/2014  log in to like post

Maybe add gizmo reproduction edits?

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