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Runkelnose

Runkelnose



  5/13/2015

I really like the 8.1s. I think the CFF norns will be the standard for me.

If I had a wish, I'd wish they would be also colortrue cause i also love coloured norns.

It´s really exciting to get this new Norns after all the years of playing docking station. :)


Here we go! Creatures ist still the best game in the world!
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  5/13/2015

Hmm... they should be losing all their boredom drive when they get hungry enough and go away from the machines to get food. CFF have an extra organ that shuts down all other drives (other than fear and pain) while they are hungry. I'm surprised that they starve by them, that should not really be happening, even with the confusing smell.

That said, Chichis really do love machines a lot, and probably do get a bit more fun out of it than they should... they get obsessed with the learning machine and dispensers quite often. I might tweak that in the final version of the Evos, because I find it a bit annoying and Evos are my breed... I also might look into making them colortrue as well.

I'm kind of hesitant to change key behaviors for the official breed releases though... CFF is more about adding a standard set of fixes to all breeds... so I think the final CFF Chichis themselves will still love machines. They really should not be getting obsessed to the point of starvation with the fixes they have, though.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/15/2015

So, if you spread your Norns out, they won't really be lonely... Hmm, I think your Treehugger Norns turned from hippies into sort of emo hipsters now... they all like to get together to talk about how alone they are, and the more people around, the more they like to talk about how they have nobody that understands them or gets them, but when they are actually alone with nobody to complain to, it really doesn't bother them...

"I'm so lonely man..." "yeah me too..." "let's all talk about how lonely we are together..." "nobody loves us..." "I know, it's such a cruel world..." "I'm such an outcast..." "yeah me too... we are so alone... alone in a crowd..." "a crowd of strangers..." "... hold me..."



Unfortunately, this seems to make them extra-susceptible to disease, even with the soothing tea spread liberally.


My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  5/15/2015

Yeah, I'd think their tendency to want to huddle together when they are in groups would make disease spread pretty easily.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Luzze

Luzze



  5/15/2015

I accidently let my genetics test world run on wolf control for several hours until the game crashed and had a chance to look at causes of many deaths now. It seems that only old or adult norns got stuck under the big jungle machine. I was probably wrong then, your genetics work perfectly fine and it just happens when old age or some disease kills of the extra organ! It would make sense at least.

I'm still testing around with the light level emitter. It's reacting to something but I can't figure out how it actually works. If I find something I'll let you know :)

I also never realised that there can be a creation of variants through mutation until I suddenly got two decolored babys from the same father in a world with only colored norns. Do you happen to know if there is any way to know which variant number a norn is exposing?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  5/15/2015

Yes, from the command line, you can type:

targ norn outv bvar

to show the variant number of the selected creature. Yeah, genes can occasionally switch variant number, normally they are 0 so they will be active in all variants, but they can change to another number which will make them nonactive in any creatures with a different variant number from that one (that is, 7/8ths of all creatures with that gene). It's a bit less common than a gene just getting randomly cut, but it can happen.

In my norns, you can also tell which variant they are a lot of the time by how they react to alcohol.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Luzze

Luzze



  5/15/2015

Thanks for the command :) Yeah, I could've given it some alcohol but as it was an EE victim already at the edge of starving, I didn't think it would be a good idea.

The results of the light emitter testing so far gave me the result that the signal always sends out '1' no matter what :/

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  5/15/2015

Well that's no good... I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board on that one if that is the case... at least it's just one gene, but I'll have to see if that can be fixed then... I'll do some messing around with it on my end when I get a little time.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/17/2015

Is it possible for fevers to trigger the suffocation response? I've had a few emo treehuggers (mine, not the latest version) die of fright when they've had fever toxin, and I'm wondering if that's why.

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  5/17/2015

Only if they are actually suffocating, I would think, especially given the fact that they died... These can't really die of fright alone. I know that fever and being too hot can screw up respiration if it gets really bad though, so it's not implausible that they were having a very hard time breathing and began freaking out about that before they succumbed to the lack of oxygen (realistic reaction, but sad :( )

These also could potentially freak out if having organ problems that cause lack of oxygen too... I think if one's heart or lung organ died or stopped for whatever reason, or had some congenital defect that prevented them from getting sufficient oxygen, they would likely start to freak out for as long as they had left, since they will most likely start feeling like they are suffocating. It's a sad but realistic consequence of this response that an unnatural death is often more unpleasant for the poor things. For example, it's heartbreaking to see the panic in a baby born with a mutation that stops it from being able to breathe and to know this is why they were so afraid for their few minutes of life. It makes it easier to determine what happened to them, but without the response they would have not suffered, and instead just quietly passed on without a clue there was anything wrong.

Well, it's also possible these also had fear toxin or some kind of mutation that made them suffocate or made fear or fear toxin in their bodies that manifested when fever toxin showed up, but I tend to think the first explanation is a bit more likely, since fear or fear toxin by themselves are not fatal. The drowning response itself pretty much just measures oxygen in their blood and reacts to that with fear if it is staying low for too long, but it definitely shouldn't be fatal on its own, what would kill them is the lack of oxygen for their regular metabolic processes (if oxygen becomes low enough to trigger the drowning response, they are already in bad enough shape that their energy will start quickly depleting shortly after, and death will follow if the situation is not rectified...) It's also rather unlikely for a mutation to make the drowning response fatal on its own the way it's designed... in fact it prolongs survival a little bit by allowing lactic acid to store some energy for them while they are in a low-oxygen state. None of the reactions involved should be easy to mutate into anything that takes anything vital or makes anything particularly toxic, thanks to the chemical numbers I chose (and the lactate-pyruvate cycle itself cannot mutate at all). About the worst mutations related to the drowning response that I could think of would cause either just fear by itself, or muscle death (which normal lactate, muscle toxin, and most mutations already makes happen in normal norns).


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/17/2015

There was no fear toxin present in their bloodstreams when they died, only about a half-mole of fever toxin. Their only drive was fear, at a high rate. I think that the strong fear response may have masked any other drive they might have had - and the inclination to do anything other than run. :(

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  5/17/2015

Yeah, they must have been suffocating then, only reason I can think of that they would have died too and not just gotten fear, it doesn't seem like they starved. Definitely if you see it again, check oxygen levels and energy levels.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/1/2015

Is the 8.1 the one in the downloads section?

 
KittyTikara

KittyTikara


 visit KittyTikara's website: The Mobula Ray
  8/1/2015

The 8.1 version can be found here.

The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog
 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  8/6/2015

There is something I kind of noticed with the CFF norns that's probably going to be difficult to balance, but it could do with tweaking.
One moment they're overflowing my world with eggs, the next it's really difficult to get them to breed, it seems like there should be more of a middle ground if possible.

What I think happens is this:
CFF norns do not (or very rarely) feel "friendly" unless the opposite sex starts to push each other out of boredom or loneliness.
Then they get in a loop of *bored >push norn >freindly >push norn >egg > bored> push norn > freindly> push norn*

Then they find something else to amuse themselves with, or a gender imbalance occurs which makes them more likely to push the same sex and they stop being friendly almost entirely.


 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/6/2015

Part of that is a known issue that all CFE-based breeds share, I think, and it's an interaction having to do with how the normal C3/DS breeding script works, along with CFE types' better learning and memories... Vampess recommended if you are going to use any CFE-based genome to use her updated breeding script available here, that fixes the same-sex and other species interactions so they don't get confused.

In the normal breeding script, same sex or inter-species pushing gives only a disappointment stim, which carries a lot of punishment, but the Norns can't actually tell the difference between sexes... they just are thinking 'push Norn', so it confuses them, makes them think they did something bad, and discourages them from wanting to push other Norns at all after they happen to push same sex or creatures of different species. Vampess' script replaces the disappointment with the normal 'Creature patted me' and 'I have pushed' stims. This makes sense, a pat should always feel like a pat to both creatures, no matter what sex or species they are.

Since CFEs remember and learn better, this issue in the breeding script can really influence their behavior and make their decisions on whether or not they like pushing each other a bit off, because sometimes it feels normal, like pushing anything else, and sometimes, for no discernible reason to them, it's punishing, almost as bad as being slapped by the Hand. Sure, they will associate it with the individual a little bit too, just because that puts them in a bad mood, so they hopefully get punished less for future pushing, because they start to dislike and become less likely to try pushing a creature that already got them punished, but really it's a pretty strong discouragement from ever trying to push anyone again at all. The only reason that this confusion isn't a big deal for normal genomes is that they forget everything every time they go to sleep.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/6/2015

That is a really, really big issue in the base code!
At least someone made a fix.
(Also are there 8.1 Chichis?)

 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  8/6/2015

I'm sorry to say this Evol, but you have missed my point (though I can see why), I have the updated breeding script.

My point was that CFF norns seem to only ever get a sex drive/fertility increase when they interact with the opposite sex, and generate almost none on their own. This means that a bored male and female can flood the world with eggs but if they find something else to interact with it can be struggle to get them to breed, this is very apparent when the gender balance gets scewed.

Ie, either they're breeding like rabbits or not at all.

It seems like there should be more of a base level of fertility and less generated through interaction.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/6/2015

Oh, yeah... that is more about genetics, I think. Specifically, I believe males normally can only get aroused after being pushed by a female norn, and their arousal level is only kind of kicked off by this... In typical Norn breeds, females have to initiate a kissing session... males might push females randomly, but it typically doesn't provoke the same response or get them to keep it up until they kisspop... Their hormone levels don't have as much to do with fertility directly as the opposite sex pheromone and arousal level do...

This stuff could probably be tweaked, but it is difficult to get the right balance here as there are a lot of hormone reactions, stimuli, and chemical emitter or receptor genes involved.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/6/2015

Perhaps make the females more likely to start pushing the males?
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/6/2015

Hmm, CFF do have tweaks to make them breed less, mainly just that libido lowerer lasts longer in them, so males should take a little longer to reach maturity and have to wait a while in between kisspops, and females are only fertile for a much smaller part of their cycles than normal. But those I think are desirable traits, Base genomes breed insanely, especially CFE... I think if they were just CFE, they would be breeding like rabbits all the time.

Yeah, I think if one wanted to 'smooth it out'.. a fix would start where missmysteric suggested, lowering the influence of opposite sex pheromone on their arousal, (it normally gives them a quick boost when they are around each other if they are fertile...) and making arousal generation be steadier, based more on their primary sex hormones... Finding a good balance here will be tricky, since I don't think you necessarily want them to breed MORE than they do now, I spent a good amount of time making them breed slower... but once you get it, if you leave libido lowerer as I have it, that should make their breeding more 'even' without being too fast. Libido lowerer's purpose is to cancel out sex drive, it effectively makes them temporarily infertile... In the base genomes and CFF, it shows up in creatures before they come of age, during the non-fertile parts of the female cycles, and for a while after a male kisspops.

Basically, this is how the whole thing works as I understand it (this is how it is in the base genomes too), females have a cycle... when they are at a certain point in the cycle (really most of the time in base genomes, only about 1/4 or less of it in CFF...), they will be fertile and start generating arousal potential... arousal potential and opposite sex pheromone turn into sex drive, so they will start getting more and more interested if a male happens to be near them at the right time... Males on the other hand, their hormone levels are always high but they have NO arousal potential until they are pushed by a female... once this happens, they get some arousal potential, which, combined with the opposite sex pheromone from the nearby female, turns into sex drive, which will eventually make them want to push back (it might take a few nudges from the female for them to get enough arousal). A kisspop only happens when the pusher and the pushee BOTH have a high enough sex drive.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
the1whoscreams

the1whoscreams



  8/6/2015

I personally think the CFF creatures need longer pregnancies, like in C1. It kind of ruins the whole "Oh my god, they had a baby" thing when their pregnancies are five seconds long.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/6/2015

Yeah, I'm kind of interested in that too, maybe also extending their lifespans to something closer to c1 creatures. I also sort of want them to be a bit dumber when it comes to survival and staying happy...

I mean, while these already do show a lot of cool new behaviors and can definitely learn quirky individual preference kind of stuff you don't normally see Norns do, and seem less robotic to me than most C3/DS Norns, they are still implausibly good at taking care of themselves and even being happy all the time, practically from birth... Makes them good for wolfling runs, but not quite as satisfying or interesting to nurture... While these are better in that respect than most C3/DS breeds in my opinion, it's still harder to get attached to these than the ones from the previous games. They have CFE-based brains, so they should be very good at learning and retaining what they learn anyway. I think less pre-programming wouldn't hurt them too much, and it would make them feel more natural.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/6/2015

So like Gizmos?
Weaker instincts, able to get boredom reduction from pushing nearly anything and anger reduction from hitting anything, etc?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/7/2015

Well, I don't think quite as far as that, these already get boredom, anger, and loneliness reduction from some extra things, which lets them kind of get more individual likes... I'm really not sure exactly, maybe just weakening some of the more common instincts, or adding a few more odd ones, I don't know... I just think they should tend more towards needing some guidance, or at least acting randomly at first, more like c1/c2 norns, rather than being super independent like most c3/ds ones, but then again, I don't want to alter the behavior of any official breeds really, just fix problems... They should still have the breed's recognizable personality traits. I think if I do mess with the instincts to make them less independent, I will only do it with Evos, since that's my breed, and it will help distinguish them from CFF ChiChis... Besides, I could convert the CFE Gizmo genome to a CFF version if there was enough demand for that breed.

I think maybe putting up some kind of poll about CFF would make sense... The CFF changes are pretty much ready I think, but there are definitely still questions like should I mess with the lifespan (a lot of people seem to like longer-lived creature of earlier games and think it helps attachment), do a lot of people think longer pregnancies are a good idea (it is definitely a cool idea and more realistic, but it may make it hard to crossbreed these with non-CFF, with stuck eggs as a common possible side effect in mixes)... Also, how do people find their behavior? Are there any other suggestions people have for fixes or changes? That kind of thing I think makes sense to kind of get at least some ideas from the community.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/7/2015

I think that the 'i hit something' stimulus reducing anger makes sense. And it's probably going to result in Hardman norns deciding plants, toys, etc are punching bags, which really suits them.
Chichis should probably get boredom reduction from pushing gadgets as well as machinery, because then maybe they'd push something other than the flipping holistic learning machine!
Otherwise keeping their instincts the same, just weakened a bit, sounds great. (Unless they've got typoes or cripple the norn (treehuggers, don't have the concepts of up and down) then they need fixing.)

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/7/2015

Yeah, Treehuggers are an odd case that might bear a closer look... I mean, I can understand not giving them instincts about elevators as a thematic thing, but to take away basically their entire navigation system too is definitely drastic... They should at least be able to feel the stims and drives, so they can realize that when they go up, they are getting closer to something above them that they are looking at or smelling, so that they can at least LEARN what an elevator does, or what a door does... I mean, they should still be able to know which direction a smell comes from, even if they don't know how to use an elevator or push a door button yet... I might make this change in my CFF 1.0 Treehuggers...

Then again, I think the Treehuggers were also very much designed to take advantage of the gimmick of the Random Teleporter that came with them... they have instincts to use teleporters to get away from places where they feel stressed, so if you give them teleporters, they will end up in all kinds of weird places in your ship, totally happy as long as they can meditate in peace (unless they end up in space...), preferably where are some plants or animals around, at least until they starve from not finding food... I'd say they are also made to nurture, or at least, make sure there is food everywhere... Oh, and a teapot of Soothing Herbal Tea... Treehuggers really do love it, makes them feel less crowded... It also boosts their weaker immune systems (another sign they were deliberately made to force people to nurture them).


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/7/2015

Yeah Treehuggers lived in treehouses, so they'd have concepts of up and down. Doors are very easy to work out as well.
If you really wanted to keep to the Treehugger theme you could always replace the elevators with Elevines. Treehuggers also don't get lonely at all, if there's more than one in the same place they get crowded and either try to climb the walls or fight everyone. Which also doesn't make sense, they're supposed to be peaceful.
Elevines are useful.
There's also the Seed Machine Problem, which'd be fixed by making it gadgets that Chichis are interested in instead of machinery.

 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  8/7/2015

The treehugger story had treehuggers interacting with each other as well, but an extreme is easier to create than a balance I guess so CL just removed their socialness entirely.

 
the1whoscreams

the1whoscreams



  8/7/2015

I know this has little to do with what you guys are talking about right now, but when do you think the CFF genome will be complete? I'm just wondering, because I want to base my breeds off of its final version.
 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/7/2015

Yeah I'd kinda like to base some stuff off it too.
Even if it's just flying CFF draconians.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/7/2015

CFF is basically complete, I just want to get a little consensus on people's ideas on any last quality of life changes... Things like lifespan, pregnancy, anything else, that people might think need fixing or at least changing in the standard C3/DS genomes, before I release them. Based on 8.1 feedback, there may still be the issue of tweaking the CFF breeding even more, though I already put a lot of effort into it, and finding a good balance here is really tricky... It is already quite a bit less insane and unbalanced than the standard genomes, and I'm especially proud of the female cycles which I managed to get back to the more realistic C1/C2 state of only being fertile during the part of their cycle where their hormone levels are high but dropping.

Also, I have found the CFF breed conversions to be finicky and time-consuming, and trying to write a guide for doing the conversions even more so... I have been quite busy with work lately too, so only the Chichi and possibly the Hardman and Dark Banshee Grendel genomes will be available at first because they are already basically done... It will probably take a while for me to get around to converting any other breeds, unfortunately, though I can at least prioritize breeds in high demand.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/8/2015

Are you starting with the CFEs?
With Treehuggers you can probably start with the Improved CFE Treehuggers because they can navigate.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/8/2015

Yeah, the CFF breeds start with the CFE genomes... I will look at those improved CFE Treehuggers for sure. One noticeable thing though is that the CFF conversion already seems to make Treehuggers a little more sociable... They still don't feel loneliness, but they don't get crowded quite as fast because they don't get any crowding from hearing speech... they also have a couple of instincts to do things like play with plants and animals and that can help them reduce their crowded feelings. I've had 6-8 of them living in the bottom floor of the meso with only occasional minor complaints.

I think as long as the things have their navigation systems working, they will be good without instincts about elevators and doors, since they can still learn how those things work quickly when they are actually able to feel that pushing/pulling them affects a drive to go in that direction... but that's something i'll be testing.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  8/8/2015

Are you adding the new stuff at the end of the genome?
 

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