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Creatures 3 Genome Project   1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | ... | 14 | 15
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  5/6/2014

At a slight tangent, in small amounts belladonna is actually used as a heart tonic - and in the right dose, can be remarkably effective.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/6/2014

It also is supposed to kill werewolves... Hmm, maybe norns are related to werewolves... :) Actually, werenorns would be in interesting breed, lol... yeah I definitely need to look at the toxin reactions and immune systems for sure. Added those to the list. I'd be very happy to work with Feddlefew on this stuff, maybe bounce the genome back and forth with edits for testing.

I don't think I'll be able to get around these guys being their own genotype (they won't be compatible with others...) After this next batch I'm probably gonna have to start moving genes around into the correct organs and stuff... so really, we can do whatever we want with pregnancy rates, reproductive systems, and so on. I will be releasing every base CFE breed though in the final version, and documenting all the changes so people can add them to their own breeds, so hopefully it shouldn't be too bad...

Speaking of reproductive systems, I am finding these guys to not be quite the breeders others are, so maybe the inhibin is effective after all... I also want to make the female cycles in C3 be a little more realistic like the C1 (to get pregnant, the hormone has to be starting to fall, instead of just being high) I'll look into the reproductive systems further when I'm done with this current batch of edits.

Been messing with norns who have additional genes to understand and react when the hand says 'yes' and 'no', and have some parental instincts, to run to parents when young and stick by them a little bit, especially when afraid, and to scatter from them when they start to mature, and I'm testing a gene to make them get sleepy faster in dark areas. Probably will try to also have them react to air temperature too, and make sure that chemical number is fixed too... then I'll upload a pair of the new norns for testing.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  5/6/2014

Many things have funny effects. TNT was used as medizine for the heart for a while.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  5/6/2014  1

I don't have the knowledge or the skills to help develop this stuff, but I'd be happy to help put the edits in other norn genomes, to extend the number of CFF breeds.
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/6/2014

Is the change in breeding significant, or only by a whisker?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/6/2014  1

I've only had one pair of norns I've tested for this, but they didn't breed until adulthood, and it took a fair bit of effort making them push each other to get it to happen, even though I had them pushing each other pretty much constantly since they hit adolescence... the male's testosterone level definitely seemed to rise more slowly than normal, and they both lost interest pretty quickly in kissing each time, since I think slowing the gonad also makes them produce less opposite sex pheromone to cue the females. I'll have to really have more around I think or look for a few generations to see, and check their hormone levels side by side with some control norns in another room to make sure, but at least from this short test it seems significant. Now that they are adults, though, I'll be able to see their breeding rate a bit better...

Their baby is cute though, it does seem to follow the parent response instincts I gave it, and likes approaching them any time it gets scared (after it bolts from whatever scared it). It follows around the mother or the father pretty closely every now and then, then goes off and plays a bit. I can't wait for it to get to adolescence to see if it follows the gene I put to urge it to go away from them (stronger instinct than the other approach parents instinct, tells it that it will increase crowdedness if it approaches them, I'm hoping this will mostly cancel out the other instinct, though they still might have a tendency to run to dad or mom when scared when they are older too, as long as they aren't also feeling crowded).

I might have to reinforce these instincts with some actual chemical drive changes, like C2 does if they don't work well, but it needs testing... Increasing crowdedness when around parents after adolescence is easy, but reducing fear when young, not so much, since there are no more drive reduction chemicals, and receptors and emitters can't put out negative amounts of drives. I might have to make a fear reduction chemical again, which gets emitted and then cancels out fear in a reaction.

EDIT: The inhibin change does seem to be quite significant... I might even have to dial it back a bit. After watching them for another couple of hours, the female was friendly a lot, but the male was almost always 'extremely quiet' or 'quite quiet' when asked if he was friendly, even after some kisses and with two females around. No eggs or kisspopping in that time.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
razander
Manic Scribbler

razander
United States  


  5/7/2014

I have a fix to suggest! [npirate] Earlier when I was working on my chicken norns, I noticed something funny with the biochemical emitters for the stress "intermediaries"--not the Stress chemical that actually does damage, but the Stress (Drive) chemicals. The pairs of Circulatory Loci associated with the stress drives are:

5-14 Hunger for Carbohydrates (Starch)
6-15 Hunger for Protein
7-17 Hunger for Fat
9-21 Sleepiness
10-20 Tiredness
10-22 Crowded
11-18 Fear
12-19 Pain
13-17 Anger

Nothing is attached to locus 8, and both the chemical emitters of Stress (Tired) and Stress (Crowded) are attached to locus 10. This means excess Stress may be produced when a creature is Tired and Crowded at the same time. I based these norns on the CFE Hardman genome (because what better template is there to base an easily-frightened norn?). I checked the CFE ChiChi genome, it also has this issue. You can find the stress genes around the early 300s. I haven't checked any grendels or ettins.

For those of you who don't know, here's an explanation of how Stress works.

Drive -> Stress (Drive) -> Stress

1. A Chemical Receptor for Tiredness is attached to Locus 10. After Tiredness exceeds a certain Threshold, it sends a signal to Locus 10. The Receptor is Digital, so it works in an on/off fashion.

2. A Chemical Emitter of Stress (Tiredness) is also attached to Locus 10, and is also Digital. The Emitter has a certain threshold. If the Receptor sends enough signals to exceed the Emitter's Threshold, the Emitter starts producing Stress (Tiredness).

3. A Chemical Receptor for Stress (Tiredness) is attached to Locus 20. This Receptor is also Digital, and sends signals to Locus 20 if the amount of Stress (Tiredness) exceeds a specified Threshold.

4. Finally, a Chemical Emitter of Stress is attached to Locus 20, also Digital. It produces Stress if Locus 20 receives more signals than the Emitter's threshold.

The Stress (Drive) chemicals don't have to be bound to their named Drives; the game only reads the chemical numbers, and the names are there solely for the benefit of developers ("pistle", anyone?). However, it is best to stick with those chemicals. For example, you wouldn't want your creature to produce ATP Decoupler every time it got too crowded.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/7/2014  1

Yeah, I noticed that tired stress and crowded stress were attached to the same locus too... I didn't notice that locus 8 wasn't used though... very good spotting! Yeah, that could definitely cause more stress for them.

Hmm if locus 8 is unused, then that's a pretty easy fix, all I have to do is change the stress receptor for tired to attach to locus 8 and have tired stress chemical emitted based on the signal in that locus instead of 10. I don't even have to touch the sliders or muck around with any new chemicals or receptors, or change which chemical does what.

EDIT: Okay, looks like receptor-emitter Locus 8 isn't unused after all, it emits hunger for protein based on the creature's muscle tissue concentration. However, I can still use one of the unused receptor-emitters. (I've used 23 and 24 so far, but 25-31 are still available.)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
razander
Manic Scribbler

razander
United States  


  5/7/2014

Huh! It's kind of odd that they're all over the place like that. It's good to know that 25-31 really are unused though.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/7/2014

Yeah, maybe they decided they had to leave enough receptor-emitters unused so people could mess with them, and added that hunger for protein for more muscular norns at the last minute... then they just said, okay lets take the 2 least stressful drives and have them share a stress receptor so we can still leave 23-31 usable.

It's not really that bad since it's not really additive having 2 different kinds of stress, since stress chemical itself only gets released when one gets particularly high. The net effect I would think would be just to make tiredness a bit more stressful, to about an equal level that crowdedness is. (tiredness I think has a gain of 5 for its stress chemical, crowdedness a gain of 8 )... fear and anger are both much higher, 13 or more... worse than the 2 combined.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/7/2014

Now that I am looking deeper in the reproductive systems, it's possible that inhibin was meant to be reacted away in c3 and destroy testosterone in the process, with a reaction something like "1 testosterone + 1 inhibin = 1 (nothing) + 1 (nothing)", instead of inhibiting the gonad like in c2. Since testosterone is produced constantly, and inhibin only when testosterone gets above a certain level, this would have the same general effect on testosterone as if it slowed the gonad. It would slow the increase of the testosterone level after it reaches a certain point, and flatten it out eventually, but without affecting other hormones.

A couple of reasons I think this is a better way for it to work in C3:

1: The half-life for inhibin in C3 is already set to maximum (half life of 72 years... or some 500 years or so to total elimination from full...) typically you only see this in chemicals that are meant to be consumed in reactions. If no reaction exists to consume it, it eventually builds up to maximum levels and will stay that way the rest of the norn's life. In C2, Inhibin halflife is set pretty short so that it will decay by itself and start to maintain a stable rate when it is being constantly emitted as a reaction to high testosterone.

2: In c2, slowing the gonad slowed production of sperm, and testosterone, but not opposite sex pheromone or arousal, like slowing the gonad would also do in C3... Those were created in a separate part of the body in C2... Inhibin slowed the gonad's reaction to vitamin E too, but then again it also slowed damage to the gonad, so the net effect on vitamin E would be pretty small. In C3, sperm is automatically produced when fertile as part of the mating script... So, testosterone is probably all we really need to affect with Inhibin in C3, and not the whole gonad.

If this is true, it warrants at least one change, so let's look at the whole system to see the best place for it... Now, the testosterone receptor I am using to tell if testosterone is high, was already in the C3 genome, just linked to the wrong place... I am fairly sure this receptor was originally supposed to link to the creation of Inhibin, and I am guessing the slider values were even tested at one point, because they are different from C2, so I think that one should be left alone.

The inhibin emitter probably needs tweaks, since values were copied from C2, which uses inhibin differently, and inhibin also has a much different half-life in c3 than in C2...

The inhibin receptor in the gonad, which slows down the whole gonad should probably be changed instead to a reaction in which inhibin and testosterone cancel each other out (I think this IS what the edit in the Gizmo norns does)... some research is still necessary, but I'm pretty sure that all this makes sense. Testing will show. I will also look at the CFE Gizmos to see how effective their use of inhibin is, and the mechanism used in their genome to have it affect testosterone.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/7/2014

It could be that a combined approach might be what would be most useful?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/7/2014

Possibly, it's just that now that I'm noticing that the other pheromones and hormones weren't affected in C2, I think it's probably best I do it that way in C3 also... at least as long as it's effective... I already have emitters and receptors to tweak, if I use a combined approach then I also have to worry about getting the half-life just right and also having a good balance between the two methods. Not that I'm ruling it out, I just need a simple base to start testing from.

As it is, adjusting the inhibin production but leaving in that gonad slowing receptor won't do much to make them more fertile, because Inhibin never goes away right now. It will always eventually build to maximum just a little while after testosterone production is getting into gear, and grind all hormone production to a standstill, including arousal potential. I also think it makes sense to try and work with the receptor and half-life that were already set up in C3 for Inhibin, so I'd prefer to avoid changing those if possible, and just tweak anything new I add.

If I want to leave the half-life alone, it seems I definitely need a reaction at least to get rid of it, so, I think the best place to start is by trying to work out a reaction affecting testosterone alone, then see if it's necessary to affect other factors by doing something like also slowing the gonad. Always better to start with something less complex and work my way up if necessary.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  5/8/2014

So what is inhibin actually for? In humans, activin and inhibin work together to regulate follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), which is required for spermatogenesis. But I don't think either activin or FSH are present in norns.

If, as it seems to be in C3, spermatogenesis is related only to testosterone (and happens automatically as a function of high testosterone) then it makes sense to have inhibin working directly to regulate testosterone. Depending on how the gain and sample rates are set, it may be possible to have male fertility "cycling" as female fertility did in C1. In fact, if you decouple inhibin from the gonad, that would mean male sex drive wouldn't be affected by low fertility - which would mean that sex wouldn't always have to result in pregnancy. So the whole cycle would give the same effect as breeding in C1, except controlled by female desire and male fertility, instead of the other way around.

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/8/2014

What kinds of data do we need on the no-inhibin male reproductive system?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/8/2014

FSH was actually in C2 creatures... but it wasn't used for males, just to help regulate the female fertility cycle. I definitely have to study how it all works a bit more, though, and just how much is controlled by scripts and how much is in the biochemistry, and what kinds of things the script looks at and does.

There's a locus that tells if they are fertile I know that much... from the testosterone levels of my males and the gene, that locus should be set... Not sure exactly what determines if a mating attempt is successful though... maybe they have to be aroused too. I don't think my males can get aroused because their gonads are slowed to a crawl and are responsible for making arousal potential and opposite sex pheromone. The lack of production of the pheromone might even be affecting the female's arousal too.

I'm still not really 100% sure why they aren't breeding though. I know in the biochemistry in c3, the 'I am fertile' for males depends just on testosterone level and should probably be still set for my males, since they still have a decent level of it. I got one of my males to breed right as he hit adulthood, but it took a lot of encouragement and possibly a lot of aphrodisiacs from the hover-doc (I didn't document it very well so I'm not sure... I mainly was just trying to make a baby so I could check out the parent response...). Maybe some Norn Viagra is all the males need.

I've been pretty busy with work and didn't get to look at it really at all the last couple of days other than a little peeking at genomes. I think it might be possible to bring back more realistic fertility cycles in females too, and that's definitely what I will try work on next once I figure out just what is going on in the males. But male cycles are a possibility, I think CFE DuoCycle Ettins have them. I definitely want to at least add some mechanic back in like the sperm production in C2, so that they can't breed again right away after mating.

As for the data I'd need on normal norns... I'd say any fertility graphs from the hover-doc at a few times during each of the different life stages from adolescense to adulthood during normal activity, and any close looks at exactly what happens to the graph during a prolonged kissing session both with and without a kisspop.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/13/2014

Been thinking of adding my speech response and behavior alterations to these norns... I really like those changes... While it makes them quieter, It also makes them more responsive to actual content of what is said to them by other norns, also changes the likelihood they respond to each other based on how strong their feelings are for each other, or their specific interest in each other at the time or their interest in what was said... which I think is more natural.

Behavior alterations are slight tweaks to make them stare at each other less, and slight tweaks to loneliness generation to offset making it a bit harder to get rid of loneliness with my speech changes, and these changes also seems to have a side effect of making them want to look at and interact more with norns they specifically like... I have noticed the tweaks make breeding with previous partners quite a bit more common. I also have a change which makes them a bit smarter about remembering they can use dispensers (default genetics actually have a slight problem that makes norns forget that instinct eventually).

I'd like feedback though, anyone think these changes would be good to add? I'm finally going to be working on tweaking inhibin behavior to fix the fertility issue on these guys too now that I have some free time again, maybe looking to add another feature or two.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
kidhedera

kidhedera
Australia  


  5/13/2014

I think that those additions sound quite good.

In my test run with Prometheus and Athena I mixed up the gene pool with a CFE-ChiChi, Gizmo-ChiChi and Private Balls from the downloads here.
It was super hard to get male CFF norns to breed (I spliced Athena and Prometheus when they were old, and then 'cloned' them by reimporting them to try to keep the CFF element strong). I only managed to get them to breed with each other once, by pumping them full of hormones. They had a son and their spliced baby was a son too. Both those boys refused to breed too.

That said, once the genes diluted a little I ended up with a crop of very clever norns (including some pretty ones cos of Private Balls nice purple colouring). Breeding them was still a little difficult except for a few particularly prolific CFE-PrivateBalls hybrids who I had trouble getting to mate outside their bloodline. *mmm keeping it in the family*

Unfortunately the ship bugged, and although I exported all the norns all but one was bugged and can't seem to be reimported into other worlds. Luckily the one that I saved has CFE, CFF, Gizmo AND Private Balls genes. If you are interested in a copy of her let me know. She's only a baby, but she's very cute.

Last night cos I was bummed about the norns bugging out I started a new ship on a different computer and started with two astros (one CFE and one Gizmo) and found myself wondering why they were so DIM after about an hour of watching them be completely useless about things, so clearly you are doing quite a bit right in your edits.

Congrats! :)

 
InsanityPrelude
For Science!

InsanityPrelude
United States  


  5/13/2014

A possible caveat to having the norns recognize family: All Gen 1 norns are considered siblings by the engine. I found this out the hard way when a wolfling run with a "don't kisspop siblings" gene didn't make it to generation 2. :P
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/13/2014

yeah i don''t have any genes relating to siblings in there yet, just parents, and those are more related to just how much they stick by them when young and avoid them when older.... I think that's probably why C2 norns have genes that detect pheromones to recognize siblings but they ended up not being used for any behaviors. Pretty much any way I can think of to use sibling recognition would probably not be desirable for gen 1 norns to have with each other...

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  5/14/2014

I think it's interesting what kidhedera's said about bright vs. dim norns, even having the CFFs in the mix as hybrids. Obviously something's going right with these ones! :) Can't wait to see the next version.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/14/2014

Hmm, I've hardly scratched the surface of these guys behavior yet, other than the drowning response, yes/no, and some responses to parents... The only thing I think that could be causing it right now is that these are less preoccupied with sex. Chichis do tend to be a little bit smarter than the other basic breeds, however.

Actually, a lot of the smartness in that case was probably from Private Balls' side, since he had my behavioral edits and the speech stimulus fixes too. I guess that means it is a good idea to add those changes to this breed. I really do think those changes make them smarter.

I am working on the next batch... and these will have some changes I hope will help make them smarter, including the changes in Private Balls.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/14/2014  1

Hmm... I do believe I found that missing floating receptor-emitter locus that tiredness stress was supposed to attach to... I went through all the receptors and emitters with a fine-toothed comb and I can't find any that use FRE locus 3.

Actually, I think it's likely that FRE 3 was supposed to be for that hunger for protein receptor-emitter that's attached to FRE 8.. since the other FREs near there (0-2) all have to do with protein digestion and make the various products involved, protease, amino acid, etc... , and the ones directly after it also have to do with metabolism and hunger. It would make more sense to have a hunger for protein receptor-emitter right next to those rather than in the middle of a bunch of drive stress receptor-emitters.

FRE8 was probably originally going to be the receptor-emitter for tiredness stress, since that would put it in the right drive order, next to the other receptor-emitters that make drive stress.

I'm thinking something got messed up in some written notes or a memo, and to someone an 8 looked like a 3, or vice versa, and then when they found they didn't have a spot for tiredness stress, someone didn't want to go through the trouble of analyzing all the receptors and emitters, so they just took a shortcut and stuck tiredness on another node with crowdedness.

PROBLEM SOLVED!


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/14/2014

kidhedera wrote:
I think that those additions sound quite good.

In my test run with Prometheus and Athena I mixed up the gene pool with a CFE-ChiChi, Gizmo-ChiChi and Private Balls from the downloads here.
It was super hard to get male CFF norns to breed (I spliced Athena and Prometheus when they were old, and then 'cloned' them by reimporting them to try to keep the CFF element strong). I only managed to get them to breed with each other once, by pumping them full of hormones. They had a son and their spliced baby was a son too. Both those boys refused to breed too.

That said, once the genes diluted a little I ended up with a crop of very clever norns (including some pretty ones cos of Private Balls nice purple colouring). Breeding them was still a little difficult except for a few particularly prolific CFE-PrivateBalls hybrids who I had trouble getting to mate outside their bloodline. *mmm keeping it in the family*

Unfortunately the ship bugged, and although I exported all the norns all but one was bugged and can't seem to be reimported into other worlds. Luckily the one that I saved has CFE, CFF, Gizmo AND Private Balls genes. If you are interested in a copy of her let me know. She's only a baby, but she's very cute.

Last night cos I was bummed about the norns bugging out I started a new ship on a different computer and started with two astros (one CFE and one Gizmo) and found myself wondering why they were so DIM after about an hour of watching them be completely useless about things, so clearly you are doing quite a bit right in your edits.

Congrats! :)



Would you consider posting her as an adoption?


My TCR Norns
 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/14/2014

I just uploaded the latest stable version of my wilder norns. I have no idea what edits made it into that version, just that they had a stable population going in first world I opened up this morning.

(Edit2: They're up now.)

ETA: Have you considered condensing some of the stress genes to free up chemicals and receptors? I think the stress system could be used to trigger more complex effects than just making more mutations occur, like making norns store more energy as adipose tissue when stressed from hunger.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/14/2014

Condense them how? you mean doubling them up on receptors? I think that's possible, though it would get rid of having differences between how much stress the drives concerned emit (if you look at drive stress emitters, they each have different gain numbers, so some drives cause significantly more stress than others when high), putting two drives on the same loci would make whichever one emits more stress when high take over the rate of stress for both.

I still have several more floating receptor-emitter nodes free that i can attach to before I need to condense any, (especially now i found that FRE 3 is free), but yeah combining drives with similar stress rates onto a shared FRE locus is probably the most harmless way to condense the use of those loci if we need more for effects like the ones you mention...

However, there are a bunch of other ways receptors and emitters can be used without needing to use additional loci, like, for example, what you mentioned, making norns store more energy as adipose when stressed from hunger, which I think is a good idea, can probably easily be done with a receptor that is just attached directly to the rate of them storing adipose, or you can hook other emitters to existing stress or other loci as well to make whatever other effects you want.

Nothing really says that a floating receptor-emitter locus can only have one emitter and receptor attached to it, it's just not used that way (intentionally at least, as far as I can tell) in any of the normal genomes. There's nothing stopping us from doing it though if we want to add stuff.



"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/14/2014

(Still thinking about the receptor problem)

About the engine problem with generation 1 norns being all considered siblings- did you engineer them from the same genome file or from different genome files?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/14/2014

I think the determination comes from the 'compulsory header' gene... which lists the parentage line... for a gen 1 creature in c3, from almost any genome file, it is typically all 'NextGen NextGen' something like that for both mother and father moniker, and I think that since those are the same for all game breeds of gen1 creatures, and any that you choose virgin birth for from the genetics kit, the game sees them all as siblings...

basically 'mom' and 'dad' are essentially blank for any typical gen 1s, and so end up matching for them... I think from the genetics kit you can hatch a first gen with different mom and dad monikers though if you want, and you can probably engineer separate genome files to have something different in that header gene if you really want different 'lines' of 'unrelated' gen1s. I haven't really tried to mess with it though myself.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  5/14/2014

evolnemesis wrote:
werenorns


Hah, that would indeed be quite amusing. I kind of imagine them as inconspicuous norns that change into vicious grendels whenever they get angry and proceed to smash everything to bits.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/15/2014

About the werenorns:

One could probably use those 'non-skeletal creatures' which Papriko mentioned in the Ideas forum to make norns that actually swap sprites based on some condition.

With some creative sprite work and a breed slot, another way to do something similar might be to just use the head expressions for your breed to make them change looks at least on their heads under some conditions.

In either case, behavior changes based on almost any conditions would be pretty easy to do... instincts and emitters are both VERY versatile and can cover a whole slew of different situations, and prompt all sorts of interesting behaviors.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
kidhedera

kidhedera
Australia  


  5/15/2014

Hey there,

I posted Lavendar (the little norn) to the adoptions thread.

I hope she's useful/interesting. I think she's really pretty which is why I had exported her as a baby and I still had a copy of her even though everyone else got borked about half an hour later. LOL.

 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/15/2014

Before I go to bed and forget about it, there's a behavioral problem where bored norns who can't see anything to interact with* in the area will tend to sit in one place until they starve, instead of wandering around or even going off in search of food. The backup drive system is supposed to take care of that, but for some reason in this particular instance it doesn't seem to work. Does anyone know if creatures can get "saturated" by a chemical so that a reaction can't proceed? That would explain why this happens- the backup chemical has reached the maximum, so boredom can't be converted into its backup.

I can't really think of a way to fix it except by somehow making bored norns more likely to pace and feel the need to use doors and elevators, so that they wander until they find something to play with.

*Or that they know how to interact with. I've seen norns starve to death in a room full of toys because they didn't have a "play with toys" instinct.

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/15/2014

I'd love to see how these go with some Curiosity Norn edits.

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/15/2014  1

Feddlefew wrote:
Before I go to bed and forget about it, there's a behavioral problem where bored norns who can't see anything to interact with* in the area will tend to sit in one place until they starve, instead of wandering around or even going off in search of food. The backup drive system is supposed to take care of that, but for some reason in this particular instance it doesn't seem to work. Does anyone know if creatures can get "saturated" by a chemical so that a reaction can't proceed? That would explain why this happens- the backup chemical has reached the maximum, so boredom can't be converted into its backup.

I can't really think of a way to fix it except by somehow making bored norns more likely to pace and feel the need to use doors and elevators, so that they wander until they find something to play with.

*Or that they know how to interact with. I've seen norns starve to death in a room full of toys because they didn't have a "play with toys" instinct.



Hmm... I'd have to test this out, but I don't think that being full of a chemical stops reactions that create it from proceeding, I think it just stays full... is this separate from eat elevator? Eat elevator also seems more likely to stick on norns who don't have as many instincts to interact with stuff. what do these norns say they are doing if you ask them 'what'?

I do think I've seen the problem though, Hardmans seem to get it with anger sometimes if i get rid of the 'swearing relieves anger' stimulus (the instinct is already gone in their default genome, but they notice the stimulus pretty fast if its there, since the game engine makes them express for any high drive, then they realize it helps and complain incessantly). They have no other instincts to relieve anger besides hitting grendels, and just kind of stew being angry, doing nothing but the forced 'express when drives are high' action from the game scripts if there are none around.

From what I can gather about the drive backup system, it's only used when the 'painly drive overwhelmsion' or 'fearly drive overwhelmsion' organs activate from high levels of pain or fear. The only one that seems to be used more actively is sleepiness backup, which works with sleepase to create their natural sleep cycles. But I don't see anything in there that would help stop boredom from taking over their minds, even over hunger.

This might be a good place for a fix... all the other drives can be capped so they can't rise quite to maximum, only let hunger get that high, so it always eventually becomes more important to them than anything else when pain and fear aren't overwhelming them. either that, or make a 'hungerly drive overwhelmsion' system. Right now all drives besides pain and fear have equal priority, but hunger really should be able to trump other drives eventually.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/15/2014

I thought the backup drive system worked for all the drives, hierarchy-of-needs style. I guess I thought it was so obvious I didn't really look to closely at it. \8^|

It's not eat elevator, since they will complain about being bored right up until they die, and placing toys evenly throughout their living space fixed the problem. Gizmo norns seem to have a worse problem with it, since they become bored more quickly than vanilla norns, especially if they try actions that don't work on objects so they try something else faster.

I suspect this might be one of the reasons ettins have such a hard time surviving- ettins are perpetually bored unless they're holding a gadget, so they tend to stop eating and only mate and carry gadgets around with them. Grendels can hit things like gadgets and steal eggs to relieve boredom, at least, but they do tend to sit around hitting the norn dummy in the workshop until they starve to death.

 

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