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Creatures 3 Genome Project   1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | ... | 14 | 15
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014  11

INTRODUCTION:
I started with C3, and I really love the game, but only recently have I gotten to play C1 or C2, or look with any real detail into all the little things that make these fascinating creatures tick. I have been doing a lot of research lately into genomes especially, and one thing that has hit me pretty hard the more I look, is that the C3 genome seems to have been released in a really rushed and incomplete state, with MANY things either broken or missing altogether, including a lot of things that were already in the previous games, and several others that seem like they were only barely tested, if at all.

That being said, I have compiled a list of fixes I would like to make... at first I thought it might be simple to add these on my own, but the more I look, the more daunting a task it seems. Still, I think it is worthwhile to try and get this done, since the C3 genes, brains, and engine are all a lot more sophisticated than any previous game, and there is a HUGE potential for the C3 creatures to be so much more than they are. Vampess paved the way with her incredible CFE edits which were a huge improvement to the original genome. I am just hoping to continue this work.

So, I am hoping I can get some feedback from the community... Whether people think it's worth it to try and really overhaul the C3 genome, any ideas on fixes I might miss thinking about, any ideas for new improvements that could be made... I am really hoping this thread can become a kind of roadmap and checklist for making a whole new better kind of creature, and that we can work together to make this happen, and have this be kind of a sounding board for ideas as well as a progress log for working on and testing these new creatures.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/2/2014  1

I am really looking forward to this. :D

In 2008, when the CFE norns were released, some things which lead to their success (I think) were the availability of beta testing beforehand, that the final version had all the official breeds ready at release, that the changes were quite marked in the CFE norn personalities, (and a lot quirkier and more naturally robust to play with) and that Vampess emphasised that they couldn't be interbred with normal norns. So - yes, I do think it's worth it. :)


My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014  2

ROADMAP/CHECKLIST:
Edited 18 Sep 2015, 10:13AM EST

This list is by no means complete... and I would welcome ANY ideas on things to add to it, especially anything that might be missing which was in previous games, since I personally don't have that much experience with them. This list will be modified or added to as necessary. I will be using all of Vampess' CFE genomes as a base:

Incomplete Inhibin/Testosterone Cycle Fixes: (solved)
- Male C3 creatures get large amounts of extra stress their entire fertile lives. (Broken Testosterone Receptor) (fixed)
- Male C3 creatures do not have regulated testosterone or other reproductive hormone levels, and levels stay through the roof. (Missing Inhibin Receptor and Emitter) (fixed)
- Libido lowerer is given to creatures after mating in C3 genome, seemingly to discourage mating sprees, but has way too short a half-life to accomplish this (solved).

Incomplete Lactate Cycle Fixes (solved)
- Muscles waste away and die with no cure after even the smallest exposure to lactate or muscle toxin (Missing Lactate Oxidation) (fixed)
- Creatures organs can easily shut down and they die shortly after a suffocation event, even if they get air in time to be able to breathe again. (Missing Lactate Creation, Broken Lactate-Pyruvate Cycle) (solved)

Other Biochemical Fixes
- Alcohol not affecting Liver function (solved)
- Adipose not affecting Heart function (solved)
- Pregnancy does not require extra nutrition/energy from pregnant creatures, slightly unrealistic fertility cycle (fertility cycle fixed)
- Unrealistic Toxin Responses
- Unrealistic Immune System Responses, sickness does not seem to strain nutrition/energy at all (fixed, creating antibodies now takes nutrition).
- Stress(Crowded) and Stress(Tired) are both tied to the same receptor-emitter, causing either drive to cause both kinds of stress at the same time (fixed).
- Vitamin E not used by creatures (fixed)
- Vitamins C and E could never leave system naturally(fixed)

Drive Fixes
- Creatures have no conscious way to know they are suffocating or drowning (Missing Suffocation Drive, missing Suffocation Receptor-Emitters) (solved using fear drive and additional fear-handling instincts)
- Creatures have no sense of thirst (Missing Thirst Drive, missing drinking stimuli, missing Thirst receptor-Emitters, water reaction tweaks)
- Creatures can become preoccupied with other drives than hunger, such as boredom, comfort, or anger, while starving to death (fixed, hunger overwhelmsion organ added)
- Creatures have no inhibition against eating when full, and can easily run out of food (solved, new lobe and tract help regulate desire to eat based on fullness)
- Norns have very little idea of what to do when afraid if no Grendels are around.. especially a problem when suffocating for CFF because no obvious threat is visible, but affects other breeds... causing them to just look at themselves for prolonged periods in a dangerous situation until fear reaches a high enough point that they are at total panic (fixed, scared Norns now have backup instincts to go towards each other or their home if they can't think of anything else to do... this also should give them a tendency to band together against aggressive attackers)

Behavioral Fixes
- Creatures have weak and ineffective Fight or Flight reactions (CFE improves this, and CFF further improve on it by utilizing 'reflexes', a feature of stimulus genes that can give the creature a suggestion for a response, to give them a thought of retreating when they are hit if they don't have any better idea).
- Creatures do not recognize relatives as in C2, even though they are capable of it, and children do not have C2 behaviors to stick by parents while young and move away when mature (fixed, CFF creatures recognize parents and have age-based behaviors towards them)
- The stimuli from the hand speaking the words 'Yes' and 'No' are not used, and the creatures do not react as they would in C1/C2 (fixed).
- Creatures used to have behavioral effects from alcohol besides gait, but this is not in C3/DS genomes. (Fixed, created set of genes allowing several random additional variant reactions and/or behavioral effects from alcohol)
- Norns tend to stay in clumps, stare at each other for long periods of time, and barely explore or move between rooms, especially CFE. (fixed, many factors involving changes to loneliness generation and drive changes from norn interaction)

Environmental Fixes
- Creatures cannot react to external light level
(Missing Light CA receptors/reactions)
- Creatures cannot react to external sounds (Missing Sound CA Receptors/reactions, possibly missing sound emission from relevant agents/environment) (sound CA does not ever seem to be used or emitted by the game engine for 'noisy objects', and no there seem to be no emitters at all in any of the basic maps... However, 'audible event' neuron may still be triggered for objects making sounds, needs testing)
- Creatures get no signal to turn around when they hit a wall or are about to walk off a ledge. (needs script fix AND possibly genetic fix... wallbonking stimulus is broken due to scripts never sending the stimulus, and even when they are fixed to just send the stim, the default stimulus gene does not encourage the creature to turn around, and just wounds it)

Brain Fixes
- Creatures are missing question words and certain situational words to speak properly (or at least as well as C2 creatures do), as well as missing drive words. (Can probably be done with lobe extensions and brain/word catalogue updates... updated catalogues should still be compatible with non-updated creatures, as new words will be added to the end of categories or put in new categories, and older creatures will not try to access them)
- Creatures are possibly missing some drive neurons and attached genes (listed in drive fixes above)
- Sounds or other possibly interesting details from objects do not seem to increase relevance of those objects as stim sources (missing detl->stim tract) (Not sure... may not be necessary, needs extensive testing, may be able to use receptor-emitters, stims, and/or instincts for desirable effects, or function may already be hidden somewhere in the game engine or lobe programming)
- Creatures who have learned any way to satisfy drives lack nearly all the curiosity of Norns in previous games to play with new objects and try new actions. (Fixed and added to CFF Evo 1.0. Found key rules in brain that determine the randomness factor of new thoughts and amped it up. Future testing may show a better balance for these rules, but the tweaks as is seem to be very effective)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014  2

FINDINGS/RESULTS:
This post will be updated with testing/research results:
Updated 28 Feb, 2015 11:56AM EST

Drowning/Suffocation:
Further research into drowning shows that drowning/suffocation is currently handled by an incompletely handled Involuntary Reaction receptor which notifies a script when the Creature has low Air in its body. This script is in 'creatureInvoluntary.cos' (or 'DS creatureInvoluntary.cos' depending on whether DS is running or not)... The script is called periodically while drowning, makes some bubbles, then sends a stimulus (Stimulus #35) to the creature, which is currently unimplimented and unhandled in the genome, which is why creatures have no awareness of drowning.

In default creatures, it seems that they keep getting the drowning involuntary action and stim for several minutes after birth, and for a very long time after leaving the water, due to how air regeneration works in their bodies. All the more reason to fix the lactate cycle. This is fully tested and confirmed working as of CFF 0.2.

NOTE: Findings from user testing show that a lactate-pyruvate cycle and drowning response using the Lactate chemical (chem #1) is too prone to disruption from extremely common mutations. As of CFF 0.7, Lactate's use in the genome has been replaced with a new chemical, 'Lactic Acid' (chem #61).

Responses to alcohol:
Now, most people probably know that alcohol damages the liver (actually it slows its function, including its healing and respiration)... in C1/C2, this also happened to creatures, and in C3 it does not, but another interesting thing is that in C1, it also made females 'randy', and males 'aggressive'... this didn't make it to C2 or C3... I think that's pretty amusing, but I think a nicer idea might be to try and use the variants (some norns of either sex get angry, some get randy, maybe some others get depressed and feel lonely, and others 'hold their booze' just fine)... I think that might be interesting, even if alcohol isn't used much in c3, it would be kind of fun to see them have a 'drunk personality' like in C1, especially if it varied randomly between individuals. This is now in the genome as of CFF 0.5.

Creatures tendency to wallbonk
It turns out that in C3/DS, the wallbonking stimulus is nonfunctional, because the default game scripts never send it, only disappointment. Upon testing with fixed scripts, it turns out that the stimulus reaction genes in the base genomes do not have the desired effect (actually they seem to make creatures wallbonk more, and worse, they cause wounding at the same time, so creatures wallbonk to death). I believe the reason it fails is that the default gene contains a strong reflex to 'retreat' and I don't think that creatures can see walls as something to retreat from... instead they appear to be getting urged to retreat from anything behind them that they look at.

For now, there appears to be no good reason to fix the wallbonking script to send the stimulus... the script currently does send disappointment, which should eventually get the creature to turn around, and this seems to be the best you can get with the default genomes. More testing is needed to see if there is a good way to fix the wallbonking stimulus gene to be properly effective in CFF.

Extra lactate appearing disproportionately in mutations:
It seems that there is an issue with mutation in C3/DS where any place that <Nothing> is specified for a chemical, it is much more likely to mutate into chemical number 1 (lactate) than any other chemical number. Logical implementation of mutation of genes with <nothing> specified in a chemical slot would be for the chemical number to mutate into a random chemical number... instead, <nothing> is treated as chemical number 0, and mutation degree determines how far from 0 the new chemical number is. chemical number 1 is by far the most common with normal mutations. <nothing> is all over every genome, by far the most common chemical listed in both stimuli and reactions, so this means that mutations regarding lactate are extremely likely.

Since lactate causes muscle damage in the base genome, does not decay without a working lactate cycle, and also triggers the drowning fear reaction in CFF, this is a bad thing. It explains why creatures without a lactate cycle so often had early complete muscle death. It leads me to think that lactate's use for muscle burn and in the drowning reaction should be deprecated, and its functions put into a new chemical with a different number. I am thinking of chemical number 61, since it is not used in other genomes as far as I can see, and by default it has the same half-life that lactate does, which is nice because it means it can work properly and fill the same functions without the creature also having to inherit a new half-life for it. I will just call it 'Lactic Acid', since that is actually what builds up in real animals when lactate is formed and what actually causes the muscle burn related to it. This is in the genome as of CFF 0.7.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
SillySina

SillySina
Finland  

 visit SillySina's website: Personal Blog
  5/2/2014  1

This is fantastic! Makes me want to dig out some time in my day to restart working on my genetics profiler. :D
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014

I'm really glad you like it :) I'd be happy to hear any suggestions or ideas you might have on other things I can think of improving or fixing.

I think I will have my first test genome available very soon... I intend to eventually put the fixes into all CFE C3/DS and Mall breeds of all 3 types of creatures (some fixes may not be appropriate for all types of creatures, and I will need to line up genes to make splicing possible, so grendels and ettins may take some additional research.,.), but for now I am just working with the CFE Chichi Norn Genome as a kind of base for improvement and testing, since their behavior is pretty standard and well known. It's definitely easier to maintain only one genome until I have a good idea that fixes are well tested and working.

That being said though, if anyone thinks we should be testing with another one of the standard or mall breeds or species as well (any one of the genomes that has a standard CFE version), I can definitely roll the edits out to them too, on a limited basis. I will also try to document all the edits here, so that people can roll them out to their favorite breeds as well, if they like.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/2/2014

Do you have Gene Compare installed? It should be easy-ish to use that to give a rundown of the changes you've made. :)

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014  1

Yep! In fact:

CURRENT GENOME COMPARISON:
CFF 0.8 (vs base CFE Chichi)
Updated 31 Mar 2015, 12:47AM EST
******* LOBES ******
830 New in file 2 18 0 Emb B 0 0 Lobe #=17 (full) at X=10 Y=72 is 1 neurons wide and 1 neurons high.
0000: 00 01 00 0A 00 48 01 01 |.....H..|
0008: 87 87 00 00 08 00 00 00 |........|
0010: 00 00 00 00 00 00 0B F8 |........|
0018: 00 0B 00 00 0B 00 00 0B |........|
0020: 00 00 0B 00 00 0B 00 00 |........|
0028: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0030: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0038: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0040: 00 00 00 00 00 03 0B 94 |........|
0048: 11 07 95 11 07 96 11 07 |........|
0050: 97 20 00 00 14 0B 94 02 |........|
0058: 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0060: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0068: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0070: 00 00 00 00 00

Fullness (full) Lobe. This lobe has a single neuron which is activated when the creature is full (combined hunger drives are low). Neuron has a signal based on how far below this threshold the combined hunger drives are, giving strongest signal when all hunger drives are fully sated. This way, the closer to sated the creature is, the more its desire to eat is suppressed.

**** BRAIN TRACTS ***
831 New in file 2 34 0 Emb B 0 0 Tract #=33, Unknown value=22
From lobe full cell 0 to 0, with 1 dendrites
to lobe comb cell 160 to 199, with 1 dendrites.
0000: 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 |........|
0008: 00 00 00 0B F8 00 0B 00 |........|
0010: 00 0B 00 00 0B 00 00 0B |........|
0018: 00 00 0B 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0020: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0028: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0030: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0038: 00 00 03 01 00 12 0A 00 |........|
0040: 13 03 01 02 03 01 00 0B |........|
0048: 00 00 0B 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0050: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0058: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0060: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |........|
0068: 00 00

This brain tract links the fullness lobe with the combination lobe, and inhibits the decision to eat by a percentage based on how full the creature is.

***** HALF - LIVES ***
Halflife of Inhibin was reduced from 255 to 48.
This allows inhibin to leave the body on its own steadily so that the level can be properly regulated from its emitter.

Halflife of Libido Lowerer was increased from 18 to 40.
Makes norns have urges suppressed longer after mating and makes females fertile for less of their cycles.

Halflife of Vitamin C was reduced from 255 to 102.
Halflife of Vitamin E was reduced from 255 to 102.
Make vitamins able to leave system naturally.

Halflife of Lactate was reduced from 255 to 0.
This deprecates the lactate chemical and makes it leave the body practically instantly. This change works with other genes to help protect any crossbreeds with no way to rid themselves of lactate from getting muscle death or other bad effects from lactate poisoning. While not strictly necessary for the latest CFF creatures themselves, since lactate does nothing to them, it makes one additional gene that can be inherited from them to protect a creature from lactate in case it does not inherit either a full lactate cycle or the new changes that use Lactic Acid.

***** RECEPTORS ****
141 Different in file 1 201 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 6, Creature, Sensorimotor, Involuntary action 7, chem=Air, thresh=77, nom=255, gain=255, features=Inverted Digital (0)
141 Different in file 2 201 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 6, Creature, Sensorimotor, Involuntary action 7, chem=61, thresh=13, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
Drowning Response Receptor: Changes the trigger from low air in lungs to high lactic acid buildup from low oxygen in tissues.

210 Different in file 1 69 0 You M MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 5, chem=Testosterone, thresh=128, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
210 Different in file 2 69 0 Ado M MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Inhibin, thresh=0, nom=255, gain=255, features=Inverted Digital (0)
This one changes a broken testosterone receptor in the gonad which produces hunger for carb stress to an inhibin receptor which slows the gonad's clock rate.

325 Different in file 1 45 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 10, chem=Tiredness, thresh=204, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
325 Different in file 2 45 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 3, chem=Tiredness, thresh=204, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
This one fixes the tiredness receptor responsible for emitting tiredness stress, which was a problem because it was on the same node as crowdedness stress, so it would cause both kinds of stress for either drive.

828 New in file 2 138 0 You M MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 21, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 23, chem=Testosterone, thresh=128, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
Receptor for testosterone (for inhibin creation when it is high)

831 New in file 2 199 0 Emb B 0 0 Organ# = 21, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 24, chem=Oxygen, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=255, features=Analogue (0)
Low oxygen receptor for lactate-pyruvate cycle.

834 New in file 2 202 0 Emb B 0 0 Organ# = 21, Current Reaction, No Tissue, Reaction Rate, chem=61, thresh=0, nom=255, gain=64, features=Inverted Analogue (0)
Regulates Fermentation rate (slows as lactic acid builds up)

871 New in file 2 203 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Hunger for carbohydrate, thresh=76, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
872 New in file 2 207 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Hunger for protein, thresh=76, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
873 New in file 2 208 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Hunger for fat, thresh=76, nom=0, gain=255, features=Digital (0)
874 New in file 2 204 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Prostaglandin, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=171, features=Analogue (0)
875 New in file 2 205 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 4, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=59, features=Analogue (0)
876 New in file 2 206 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Antigen 5, thresh=0, nom=0, gain=58, features=Analogue (0)

These receptors regulate a new organ which allows hunger to overwhelm other drives when it gets high. This organ is damaged by the same things the Digestive organ is.

55 New in file 2 209 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 2, Organ, Organ, Clock Rate, chem=Alcohol, thresh=64, nom=0, gain=24, features=Digital (0)
92 New in file 2 212 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 4, Organ, Organ, Injury, chem=Adipose Tissue, thresh=240, nom=0, gain=2, features=Digital (0)
206 New in file 2 211 0 Emb F MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 11, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Vitamin E, thresh=32, nom=0, gain=127, features=Analogue (0)
232 New in file 2 210 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, Organ, Organ, Repair Rate, chem=Vitamin E, thresh=64, nom=0, gain=141, features=Digital (0)

More biochemistry: Vitamin E did not have a function in C3 creatures, this restores its C2 function of helping repair rate of gonads and uterus. Also, as in previous games, Alcohol again affects liver, and obesity again affects heart.

***** EMITTERS ****
156 Different in file 1 41 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Sensorimotor, Crowdedness, chem=Loneliness, thresh=227, samp=10, gain=3, features=Inverted Digital (0)
156 Different in file 2 41 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 7, Creature, Sensorimotor, Crowdedness, chem=Loneliness, thresh=227, samp=10, gain=2, features=Inverted Digital (0)
This change slightly tweaks down their loneliness generation to make up for some stimulus edits that make it a little harder for them to get rid of loneliness.

316 Different in file 1 9 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 10, chem=Stress (Tired), thresh=128, samp=14, gain=6, features=Digital (0)
316 Different in file 2 9 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 17, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 3, chem=Stress (Tired), thresh=128, samp=14, gain=6, features=Digital (0)
This is the fixed emitter for tiredness stress, so it can be generated separately from crowdedness stress.

829 New in file 2 44 0 You M MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 21, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 23, chem=Inhibin, thresh=127, samp=9, gain=6, features=Digital (0)
Inhibin Emitter. This matches the testosterone receptor above. Inhibin will slow the gonad by an amount proportional to the amount of inhibin in the body. The sampling rate and gain of this emitter, along with the half-lives for Inhibin and Testosterone, can be changed for various effects, such as adding a male cycle. Currently tuned to stay at steady levels and constantly slow the gonad slightly in mature male norns, so that sex drive and arousal are generated a little bit more slowly than normal.

832 New in file 2 45 0 Emb B 0 0 Organ# = 21, Creature, Circulatory, Floating receptor/emitter 24, chem=37, thresh=111, samp=1, gain=85, features=Inverted Analogue (0)
Lactate Dehydrogenase (LDH) Emitter. This is a new chemical which regulates the lactate-pyruvate cycle based on the oxygen level in the tissues.

840 New in file 2 46 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 21, Creature, Sensorimotor, Light level, chem=Sleepiness, thresh=0, samp=114, gain=4, features=Inverted Analogue (0)
This emitter looks at the light level receptor locus in sensorimotor system, and emits sleepiness periodically based on the light level. The locus says it is deprecated, because now you can use light CA as well in some genes, but from testing, it still works and properly measures the amount of light CA in the area. This was the simplest way to get this response, the gene is copied from C2. It doesn't knock them out, but it definitely gives them more of a tendency to get sleepy faster in darker areas, and makes it easier for them to sleep when resting there.

***** REACTIONS ****
220 Different in file 1 84 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, 1*Arousal Potential + 1*Libido lowerer => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 23
220 Different in file 2 84 0 You B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 12, 1*Arousal Potential + 1*Libido lowerer => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 29
Tweak to libido lowerer breakdown. This hopefully will make males wait longer before being able to mate again. Needs some testing and probably more tweaks.

345 Different in file 1 85 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Antigen 0 + 1*<NONE> => 12*Antibody 0 + 1*Histamine B; half-life = 40
349 Different in file 2 85 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Antigen 0 + 1*Glucose => 12*Antibody 0 + 1*Histamine B; half-life = 40
347 Different in file 1 86 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Antigen 1 + 1*<NONE> => 12*Antibody 1 + 1*Histamine A; half-life = 41
351 Different in file 2 86 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Antigen 1 + 1*Glucose => 12*Antibody 1 + 1*Histamine A; half-life = 41
349 Different in file 1 87 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 16*Antigen 2 + 1*<NONE> => 12*Antibody 2 + 2*Coldness; half-life = 42
353 Different in file 2 87 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 16*Antigen 2 + 1*Glucose => 12*Antibody 2 + 2*Coldness; half-life = 42
351 Different in file 1 89 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Antigen 4 + 1*<NONE> => 3*Antibody 4 + 1*Hotness; half-life = 42
355 Different in file 2 89 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 2*Antigen 4 + 1*Glucose => 3*Antibody 4 + 1*Hotness; half-life = 42
353 Different in file 1 88 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 3 + 1*<NONE> => 1*Antibody 3 + 2*Coldness; half-life = 42
357 Different in file 2 88 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 3 + 1*Glucose => 1*Antibody 3 + 2*Coldness; half-life = 42
355 Different in file 1 90 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 5 + 1*<NONE> => 3*Antibody 5 + 1*90; half-life = 48
359 Different in file 2 90 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 5 + 1*Glucose => 3*Antibody 5 + 1*90; half-life = 48
357 Different in file 1 91 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 6 + 1*<NONE> => 3*Antibody 6 + 1*Hotness; half-life = 48
361 Different in file 2 91 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 6 + 1*Glucose => 3*Antibody 6 + 1*Hotness; half-life = 48
359 Different in file 1 92 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 7 + 1*<NONE> => 3*Antibody 7 + 1*Pain; half-life = 47
363 Different in file 2 92 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 18, 1*Antigen 7 + 1*Glucose => 3*Antibody 7 + 1*Pain; half-life = 47
Making antibodies from antigens now takes some nutrition in the form of glucose, potentially making sickness more dangerous if creatures are not well-fed.

830 New in file 2 2 0 Emb B 0 0 Organ# = 21, 1*61 + 1*Oxygen => 1*Pyruvate + 1*Oxygen; half-life = 0
833 New in file 2 4 0 Emb B 0 0 Organ# = 21, 1*Pyruvate + 1*37 => 1*61 + 1*Energy; half-life = 0

Pyruvate - Lactate Cycle... Turns lactic acid into pyruvate when there is plenty of oxygen, Turns pyruvate into lactic acid when there is low oxygen, reaction is regulated by LDH. Not only does this cycle save the muscles if exposed to muscle toxin, it allows for lactic acid to act as a backup energy source when oxygen is low.

862 New in file 2 14 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Coldness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Coldness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
863 New in file 2 19 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Hotness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Hotness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
864 New in file 2 37 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Tiredness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Tiredness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
865 New in file 2 61 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Loneliness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Loneliness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
866 New in file 2 71 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Crowded + 1*<NONE> => 1*Crowded backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
867 New in file 2 105 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Boredom + 1*<NONE> => 1*Boredom backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
868 New in file 2 106 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Sex drive + 1*<NONE> => 1*Sex drive backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
869 New in file 2 108 0 Emb B 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Comfort + 1*<NONE> => 1*Comfort backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18
870 New in file 2 117 0 Emb B 128 0 Organ# = 22, 1*Anger + 1*<NONE> => 1*Anger backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18

Reactions for the new Hungerly Drive Overwhelmsion organ. Secondary drives convert into backups when hungry.

859 New in file 2 107 0 Emb B 128 0 Organ# = 21, 1*Comfort backup + 1*<NONE> => 1*Comfort + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 58
860 New in file 2 116 0 Emb B 128 0 Organ# = 21, 1*Anger backup + 1*<NONE> => 1*Anger + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 58

Drive maintenance. Restores comfort and anger drives from backups when Drive Overwhelmsion stops.

852 New in file 2 109 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 1 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 3*Anger + 1*Sleepiness; half-life = 64
853 New in file 2 110 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 2 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 3*Sex drive + 1*Sleepiness; half-life = 64
854 New in file 2 111 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 3 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 3*Loneliness + 1*Sleepiness; half-life = 64
855 New in file 2 112 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 4 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 2*Reward + 1*Sleepiness; half-life = 64
856 New in file 2 113 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 5 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 2*Tiredness + 1*Sleepiness; half-life = 64
857 New in file 2 114 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 6 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 1*<NONE> + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 64
858 New in file 2 115 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 7 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 1*Sleepiness + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 64
859 New in file 2 118 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 8 Organ# = 21, 1*Alcohol + 1*<NONE> => 2*Boredom + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 64

Alcohol variant behavior genes. These give the creatures varying personal reactions to alcohol based on their variant number.

***** STIMULI ****
401 Different in file 1 15 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I am travelling (periodic) (23) causes sig=26 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,160 => -2*Boredom + 2*Tiredness + -1*Coldness + 1*Hunger for carbohydrate
401 Different in file 2 15 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I am travelling (periodic) (23) causes sig=26 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,160 => -4*Boredom + 1*Tiredness + -1*Coldness + 1*Hunger for carbohydrate
403 Different in file 1 17 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I have approached (periodic) (16) causes sig=29 GS neu=14 int=0, ,,,0 => -8*Boredom + 1*Crowded + -6*Loneliness + 1*Hunger for carbohydrate
403 Different in file 2 17 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I have approached (periodic) (16) causes sig=29 GS neu=14 int=0, ,,,0 => -7*Boredom + 1*Crowded + -6*Loneliness + 1*Hunger for carbohydrate
404 Different in file 1 18 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Heard creature speak (11) causes sig=0 GS neu=4 int=0, ,,,240 => 1*Crowded + -10*Loneliness + -11*Fear + -5*Anger
404 Different in file 2 18 0 Emb B MutDupCutDor 128 0 Heard creature speak (11) causes sig=0 GS neu=4 int=0, ,,,240 => 1*Crowded + -10*Loneliness + -11*Fear + -5*Anger
526 Different in file 1 55 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Reached peak of smell 12 (67) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -25*Loneliness + -6*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
526 Different in file 2 55 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Reached peak of smell 12 (67) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -25*Loneliness + 0*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
Behavioral tweaks to discourage excessive staring and bibbling. Moving around is a little more fun, staring at and walking towards creatures just to look at them is a little less fun. Hearing speech no longer affects drives or automatically grabs their attention forcing them to respond.

518 Different in file 1 48 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Activate machine (90) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -12*Boredom + 2*Hunger for fat + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
518 Different in file 2 48 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Activate machine (90) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -12*Boredom + 2*Tiredness + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
Fix to activated machine stimulus to prevent pressing dispensers from being seen as a bad action for getting food by creatures and causing them to forget the dispenser instinct.

835 New in file 2 59 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Involuntary 7 (35) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,Sensed even when asleep,,16 => 24*Fear + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
Drowning causes fear quickly. Learning is silenced since stimuli is not associated with any specific voluntary action on the creature's part. Creature just knows it's in a bad situation.

836 New in file 2 60 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Hand has said yes (40) causes sig=0 GS neu=4 int=0, ,,,240 => -7*Fear + -6*Anger + -4*Loneliness + 87*Reward
837 New in file 2 61 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Hand has said no (42) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,48 => 4*Fear + 87*Punishment + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>

Use the stimuli for the hand saying yes and no. Mirrors effects of tickle and slap, but does not add the slap's pain & wounding for 'no'.

389 Different in file 1 2 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Creature slaps me (4) causes sig=116 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,240 => 2*Anger + 6*Fear + 3*Pain + 3*90
389 Different in file 2 2 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Creature slaps me (4) causes sig=116 GS neu=5 int=32, ,,,240 => 2*Anger + 6*Fear + 3*Pain + 3*90
521 Different in file 1 45 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I've been hit (25) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,112 => 3*Pain + 2*Fear + 4*90 + 0*<NONE>
521 Different in file 2 45 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I've been hit (25) causes sig=0 GS neu=5 int=16, ,,,112 => 3*Pain + 2*Fear + 4*90 + 0*<NONE>
These encourage a slight bolt reflex when hit.

520 Different in file 1 50 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Got creature egg (93) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -12*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
520 Different in file 2 50 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Got creature egg (93) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -12*Boredom + 119*Comfort + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
Nesting instinct. Norns want to bring eggs they are holding home.

523 Different in file 1 54 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Reached peak of smell 15 (70) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,48 => -124*Comfort + 5*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
523 Different in file 2 54 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Reached peak of smell 15 (70) causes sig=0 GS neu=7 int=48, ,,,48 => -124*Comfort + 5*Boredom + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE>
Encourages the norn to drop everything they are carrying when they get home.

***** INSTINCTS ****
838 New in file 2 30 0 Emb B DupCut 128 0 [08: Unknown] [Cell 5] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Fear] => Cell 4 (come); unknown = 36.
839 New in file 2 35 0 Ado B MutDupCut 128 0 [08: Unknown] [Cell 5] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Crowded] => Cell 4 (come); unknown = 248.

Child's parent response instincts. Instinct to approach parents when afraid from birth. Stronger instinct that kicks in at adolescence telling them that approaching parents is crowding.

841 New in file 2 36 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 13 (Bug)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Hunger for protein] => Cell 12 (Eat); unknown = 62.
842 New in file 2 38 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 15 (Critter)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Hunger for fat] => Cell 12 (Eat); unknown = 62.
843 New in file 2 39 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 6 (Leaf)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Hunger for carbohydrate] => Cell 12 (Eat); unknown = 62.
844 New in file 2 37 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 4 (Plant)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Boredom] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 93.
845 New in file 2 40 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 15 (Critter)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Loneliness] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 62.
846 New in file 2 41 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 13 (Bug)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Boredom] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 62.
847 New in file 2 42 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 4 (Plant)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Loneliness] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 93.
848 New in file 2 43 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 13 (Bug)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Loneliness] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 93.
849 New in file 2 44 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 7 (Flower)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Loneliness] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 93.
850 New in file 2 45 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 15 (Critter)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Boredom] => Cell 1 (push); unknown = 93.
851 New in file 2 46 0 Emb B 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 7 (Flower)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Boredom] => Cell 0 (Quiescent); unknown = 93.

Natural weak instincts. These tend to give more random urges and allow the norns to develop quirks, as well as give them a more natural set ideas of things that a norn might find interesting to do in a bigger set of situations, so they hopefully spend a little less time drooling on themselves.

***** ORGANS ****
861 New in file 2 45 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 22, Clockrate = 128, Life force repair rate = 20, Life force start value = 128, Biotick start = 94, ATP damage coefficient = 128
New Hungerly Drive Overwhelmsion organ. This organ prevents creatures from starving to death while preoccupied with less critical drives.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/2/2014

Why does the inhibin emitter switch on at a different life stage to the inhibin receptor?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014

Not sure, I copied it from C2 (except I used the values for testosterone from the C3 receptor which would have linked to inhibin creation if the emitter were completed)... I haven't gotten to investigate the inhibin cycle much to tweak it yet though, right now I'm mainly testing the lactate and drowning responses...

I'm finding that I had to ramp up the fear from drowning a bit, and that was pretty effective to get them to notice it and start freaking out once they started really drowning (though they do panic sometimes and run the wrong way, but then again so do people... it seemed quite good at noticing its air getting low though, and they can save themselves a lot of the time it seems now. One thing I think that is also hurting them is they tend to wallbonk when scared... Rather than turn around they just keep running against the wall. If they didn't do that I think they'd be able to save themselves pretty much every time, as long as they weren't in the middle of the ocean or something.

The only thing is that the whole recovery from suffocation thing also seems a bit off in C3... the drowning involuntary action is triggered by low air, but their base air level stays quite low for a really long time after getting out of the water, like their lungs are filled with water, and right now that causes them to keep freaking out for a really long time after getting out... Preferably they should feel a lot better pretty shortly after they get out of the water and not feel like they are still drowning, even if they are having some difficulty breathing... they have oxygen in their system again... otherwise they are likely to run right back in the water and not even notice the difference. Also, babies seem to start out a bit low on air too, but its right on the borderline... they can start freaking out pretty bad though with this drowning response.

I think I might change the suffocation response to be based on the lactate buildup from low oxygen, like in C2 (it's really the burning in the lungs from lactate buildup which real animals notice anyway, not just the lungs being empty or a little gasping)... This way they should feel a lot better after getting out of the water, since lactate goes away quickly in them... they might be gasping for breath a little, but they are not suffocating any more, and this should stop them from reacting like they are still drowning. It'll probably take a tweak or two to the lactate build-up rate and maybe one or two other things, I'll see.

Almost ready to upload these guys though so people can start messing with them. I really just want to make sure the drowning response is decent first.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
KittyTikara
Scary Dunsparce

KittyTikara
United States  
Moderator


 visit KittyTikara's website: The Mobula Ray
  5/2/2014

So your saying I get to dunk Norns in water and watch them run around scared?


The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/2/2014

Hehe, yep [nevil]... Takes a little bit though, they don't instantly get scared like the hydrophobic norns, just once they start feeling like they are drowning. Still, it's a step in the right direction that they can notice... they do seem to be pretty good at getting out of it if they walked into it too... they turn around if they were just walking that way, or go away from what they were thinking of messing with if they chased a ball in there or something.

I think norns prefer to be dunked in tea though. :)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/3/2014  3

You were saying? [nwink]



My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/3/2014

Whew, finally got stuff looking pretty good with the lactate cycle and drowning response, it involved using an enzyme called Lactate Dehydrogenase, which in real animals regulates the reaction that converts Pyruvate into Lactate and vice versa. It took me a while to get comfortable with everything about how receptors and emitters work. I'll put details of all the changes up on the genome comparison post shortly.

These norns will have:
- Complete lactate-pyruvate cycles (no more automatic muscle death from any lactate or muscle toxin, and they should be a little more resilient against suffocation).
- Complete testosterone-inhibin cycles (the inhibin is in there but doesn't seem to do much right now other than keep their testosterone slightly lower than my control norns... I need to research their reproductive systems a bit more, and inhibin itself, to figure out how to tweak it to do what it's supposed to)
- A complete drowning response based on the lactate buildup in their bloodstream when oxygen gets low. lactate leaves their systems quickly once they have a normal amount of oxygen in their blood, and goes to low levels once they can breathe at all, which lets them stop getting the drowning stimulus and freaking out too much once they are out of danger.

How does everyone feel about the name CFF (Creatures Full of Fixes)? I'll put the first version of the Chichi egg agent up later in Breeds for people to play around with, and keep it up to date with any new stuff that gets put in as we go on. I'm very close, though.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/4/2014

I'll be really interested to see how these changes to the drowning response play out in Bondi, as they've already got a bit of a larger lung capacity to start off with.

My TCR Norns
 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  5/4/2014

Evolnemesis> Can't wait to see the new norns!

I wonder if there's a way to stop the wallbonking? An instinct that gets them to retreat when pain is high, maybe?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/4/2014  1

yeah the problem is they technically can't see walls as objects to retreat from I think... they do get a stimulus when they hit, but they are already retreating when hitting them. I might be able to figure out a way to get them to turn around when that happens though... Pretty sure they do have a neuron in their brain that detects something like being by an edge or near a wall... and I know they can tell which direction they are going in...

That's another difference, c3 creatures don't have turnase (which signals c1/c2 creatures to turn around). In C3, they use their brains and direction awareness more for this effect: The pain from the stimulus usually causes them a slight temporary bad association with the direction they are going (they think 'hey, walking left kind of hurts!'), which is how they normally will turn around on their own. I think in the case where they have strong fear, this isn't enough. It's probably possible to put turnase back in for this circumstance if necessary, or at least duplicate its effects when they wallbonk or are about to walk off a ledge. Adding it to the list.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Puddini

Puddini
Argentina  


  5/4/2014

Looking foward to this.
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/4/2014

Are you using any new chemicals? If so, you might like to add them to the Creatures Development Standards list, so that other developers are less likely to, say, call the chemical 'DeadlyPoison' and create genes to treat it as a deadly poison. :)

My TCR Norns
 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/4/2014  1

^Didn't I make a list like that somewhere? Before my brain turned into pudding?
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/4/2014

Thanks! I didn't realize there was a standards list like that ... That should be helpful. So far I've been messing around with one new chemical, not 100% sure it's necessary but it seems to be... basically it helps regulate the conversion from pyruvate to lactate and back.

There is a chemical which performs exactly the same function in real animals: Lactate Dehydrogenase, so that's what I'm calling it. If I keep it I'll add it. For now I have it as chemical 111, grouped next to other chemicals with similar uses in the base C3 genomes.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
KittyTikara
Scary Dunsparce

KittyTikara
United States  
Moderator


 visit KittyTikara's website: The Mobula Ray
  5/4/2014  1

This chemical list Feddlefew?


The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog

 
Puddini

Puddini
Argentina  


  5/4/2014  1

Don't male Grendels of Minimordor use chemical 111? (Actually the chemical kills them but that's not the point)
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/4/2014

Hmm well the chemical number's not set in stone... looks like that list Feddlefew made is quite a bit more complete... very nice work... Looks like there is a conflict after all... I do see the grendels of Minimordor on there (they seem like a cool breed, I'll have to check them out).

I'm noticing in that standards document that a lot of stuff CL made seems to violate it (for example, many DS foods have medicines in them, and many official agents released do make additional changes to chemicals and have non-standard behaviors for their agent type).

I just uploaded the first test version of the Chichis... mostly just has some biochemical fixes and the suffocation reflex (summary in the description)... It probably won't stay up long without more improvements, because I have a bunch more stuff I'm looking at now that seems pretty easy, and I'll probably change that chemical number too.

I'll probably change the number to 37, since the chemicals near there control cell respiration, and the lactate-pyruvate cycle is part of that process (pyruvate is oxidized and converted to energy in the cells to fuel cell activity, and lactate acts as a backup for pyruvate when oxygen is low... LDH is a very important part of that process by governing which way the reaction goes). For now, don't splice them with those Grendels and you should be fine. If you want to breed them, they currently should be compatible with any CFE-based breed.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/5/2014  2

Found out something interesting about wallbonking, turns out that the gene in creatures that reacts to the 'I hit a wall' stim doesn't work at all, because the script in charge never sends the creature the stim, it just sends disappointment.

So they actually don't get the drive increases and learnable message to retreat when they hit a wall, just an idea that walking that way isn't working. It would take altering the game script to get that stim to fire.

The game script in question is 'creatureDoneTo.cos' (In DS: 'DS creatureDoneTo.cos') in the bootstrap folder of your game.

This is the script in the file to change if you want to fix this:

** bump script
scrp 4 0 0 7
inst
doif movs = 0
* disapoint to discourage
stim writ targ 0 1
endi
endm

just add 'stim writ targ 7 1' right after the other 'stim writ' line.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/5/2014  1

I'd love to see the inhibin cycle as alterable as the pregnancy response - it's really interesting what a 10 minute pregnancy does to your creatures' behaviours.

My TCR Norns
 
SillySina

SillySina
Finland  

 visit SillySina's website: Personal Blog
  5/5/2014

That would be awesome Malkin!
 
TrellyDawn
Wee Scientist

TrellyDawn
Canada  
Moderator


 visit TrellyDawn's website: TrellyOllyOxenFree
  5/5/2014

Do you plan on altering the length of the pregnancies any? :)

Trell
"Holy crap in a casket!"

 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/5/2014  1

One of the things I was trying to fix before my game died was the Norn's immune system, since norns with no immune systems were often doing better than norns with immune systems. Also, every other toxin stops ATP production, which is pretty boring.

Things I did and tested:
-Resistance (but not immunity) to cyanide
+Inactive genes that let them sequester cyanide using glucose, making a new chemical, but I didn't get the kinks worked out.

-Resistance (but not immunity) to ATP decoupler.

-Belladonna causes drunken gate and asphyxiation (by completely stopping the lungs from working) instead of messing with ATP production.

Things I did (but didn't get around to testing):

-Moved toxin breakdown/metabolism into the catabolic liver organ.

-Made antigen to toxin reactions in the "life" organ, using the basic formula "antigen # -> toxin A + B", since they should still effect norns even if they have a damaged immune system.
+This is part of a system I was working on that made the immune system more realistic. Basically, antigens react with antibodies to make antibody precursors, which are then converted into antibodies using nutrients. The math of getting everything synchronized was frustrating me so I gave up. 8^(

-Belladonna effects are a little too lethal, probably because norns keep taking damage even after the stop suffocating. I also wanted to make higher levels of the toxin paralyze norns, but I couldn't figure out how to make them freeze.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/5/2014

Yeah, I ran up into that kind of problem with getting things synchronized with the whole lactate cycle thing, lol thats why it took me an extra 2 days to release these first test norns, lol... it was quite painful... once you start trying to work with other reactions in the body AND get your reactions working in harmony properly... ugh... I really don't want to look at metabolic reactions again any time soon, lol.

But that is definitely interesting stuff, I do need to move some of these reactions around into organs eventually, so they can properly react to damage to them and their clock rates... I'm just a little hesitant to right now, since it will make them totally incompatible with other breeds (and make me have to muck around with the reaction rates and emitter-receptors again, since now they will be affected by the organ's clock rates).

The more realistic immune system requiring nutrition and stuff definitely sounds worth it, though... it makes more sense for them to need nutrition to get better, I am pretty sure in c1 the immune reactions required hefty amounts of glucose (which is pretty realistic, but one reason why illness was so bad in c1).

The poisons are all supposed to be pretty bad though, I mean, ATP Decoupler is exactly how a good bug spray kills roaches instantly... it's RAID for Norns... there are similar biochemical agents like Sarin that work on humans, and practically kill instantly with tiny doses. Cyanide is also quite nasty and can kill most animals and people fairly quickly in very relatively small doses, since it blocks oxygen from getting to the cells by bonding with the oxygen transport systems in the body.

All toxins do really eventually lead to affecting ATP production through various routes in real animals too though... since all respiration and digestive processes lead into trying to make energy for the cells, and that phosphate cycle with ATP is one of the most fundamental things in all life that allows any cell (plant or animal) to live.

Stopping ATP production is the way you kill cells, and it's ultimately how all toxins work on us eventually to cause death... stopping breathing, stops oxygen, which stops glycolosis, which stops cell respiration, which stops ATP cycle... interfering with cell respiration by blocking oxygen, which eventually stops atp production, and so on.. it might be a bit boring, but ATP really is at the core of what keeps any animal alive... ATP decoupler is designed to get right into the heart of the matter and just totally stop all cell action by destroying ATP as its formed.

You are right about Belladonna though, it is probably a bit more toxic to them than it should be, as people can survive eating a little, but it is also can stop the heart and lungs by its action. The lactate cycle might actually already be making them more resistant to belladonna, because of how it reacts to a drop in oxygen in the tissues, but it needs tweaks...

It actually turns out that lactate may be even more helpful than I thought, and could end up helping them when exposed to many of these toxins... There is one more thing I still need to add for it eventually (and this should help the resistance to suffocation be a little more effective, since right now it doesn't make too much of a noticeable difference..) Lactate helps speed up all kinds of reactions involving the creation of energy in the body when its formed by a related chemical action that occurs during its formation wih LDH... I probably will have to increase metabolic rates in a few places when it's in the body (most likely with proper receptors on the liver and mitochondria to speed their clock rates...)

After a couple of days of suffocating norns to get that reaction working even halfway decently though, I'm not *quite* ready to go back to it yet or start poisoning them also, lol... Right now I'm working on some behaviors like reacting to 'yes' and 'no', light/heat affecting norns, young wanting to stick near parents when scared, and maturing norns wanting to move away from the parents with a crowding response to them which starts at adolescence.

I think my next step after I'm done with these behaviors will have to be to move stuff around into organs properly, tweak this lactate thing all over again, and make them their own type genetically... there is no good way to have liver and adipose, and some other things like that lactate energy creation speedup, to work properly without moving genes around so those reactions can be inside the organs to properly affect them.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/5/2014

Malkin, Darby: The inhibin production thing is pretty easy to tweak, it's really just one gene that needs tweaking for it... the action of tweaking that gene will raise or lower a sort of equilibrium level to give the creature a maximum amount of testosterone in the body. Basically it kicks in as testosterone gets high, slows the creation down based on how high it is, until it reaches a rate where its being created only about as fast as it is leaving the body (you end up with a nice fairly flat line in a chemical graph)...

This is quite realistic for males, they end up being pretty much like humans, with males having a constant moderate amount of testosterone that stays pretty much stable after adolescence, slowly lowering as they get older. I just need to do a little more research on how their fertility works to figure out just where this happy medium should be normally...

If people think I should add additional genes that allow tweaking so that you can make male cycles instead of just a flat line, I would probably be up for it... (I think Vampess' DuoCycle Ettins have some genes like this)

As for pregnancy rates, I'm not sure yet... if people think they should be longer I definitely can mess with them. I definitely at least want to get back that more finicky and realistic female cycle from c1 though... c3 norns are fertile way too much of the time in my opinion.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/5/2014

What I meant was that Cyanide, ATP D, and Belladona all worked by reacting away ATP (or Energy). I changed them so that they all had different, slightly slower mechanism so that you had about a minute to catch them.

I set up ATP D so that it reacted with medicine one to make more medicine one and muscle toxin, and all norns had a small amount of medicine one in their system from birth. So norns hit with a small amount would survive and build up a resistance, but more than 50 unites at once could still easily kill them. I also set medicine one to decay back to normal levels after an hour or so.

Cyanide no longer reacts away energy, but still quickly stops the mitochondria from working. I had the cyanide sequestering system set up (but inactive) for any future apple norn or toxic breed conversions. 8^)

Belladonna no longer directly interacts with the entire energy system, instead affecting the muscular systems (hence the drunken gate). It also still messes up thermal regulation, which might be why its so lethal, since that's on top of slowing down breathing. It wears off quickly, but in anything but a tiny dose or with prolonged exposure it's always resulted in death.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/5/2014

I thought Cyanide worked by reacting away oxygen or stopping reactions involving it.. I'll have to look at that. technically it should be interfering with any processes that use oxygen, which I think is all the energy creation stuff in the mitochondria, and maybe some of the glycolysis stuff in the liver. You definitely should have a little time to catch it, and making it work by slowing/stopping mitochondrial function is probably more realistic than it going straight for energy...

But also remember in c3, energy is separate from ATP or direct cell energy, and acts more like a catalyst for its creation, or a general measure of how well reactions can happen inside the cells (since there is no 'energy' chemical in real animals...)

In c1/c2 Energy acted pretty much directly like ATP, in C3 it has a slightly different role, and is more like a potential for the ATP reaction... look up NAD+ and NADH... Energy chemical in C3 seems to represent the balance between those two chemicals, which really fuel most of the reactions inside cells (including the pyruvate-lactate cycle and the creation of ATP)... NAD+ is the oxidizing form that is ready to take up an electron, and NADH donates electrons in the reduction, converting to NAD+ to keep the cycle going... I think with cyanide, the creation of that oxidized form is stopped... the cycle would cease to be available and activity would cease pretty quickly in cells as they suffocate.)

So really, destroying Energy is another way to indicate the electron transfer chain not being available, cause suffocation in the cells, and stop action inside them other than messing with reaction rates... My guess is that tweaking that kind of stuff drove the CL people nuts like it did you, so they decided to just go the slightly simpler route, lol.

Yeah, I haven't looked at belladonna too much, I wouldn't think it should just go right for the energy system, but then again I really don't know that much about what it does in real bodies... messing with thermal regulation is interesting, and yeah that would affect breathing and oxygen levels pretty bad...

I'd definitely be interested to see what you've done, although I now know a lot about what goes on in cells, I need to do a bit more research into toxins definitely, I'd be happy to see any information or genes you've come up with... as you are probably right about a lot of the responses not being realistic, although ATPD probably really should be a very fast death, it could stand to be a BIT slower in action... I mean in humans, with a lot of these ATP-affecting agents, a quick injection to the heart can save the person if they get it within a few minutes... with creatures you have hardly even a second.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew
United States  


  5/5/2014

IRL, in humans belladona messes up the part of your nervous system that regulates things like sweating, salavation, urination, and heart rate. The last one is what usually kills people, since it causes arrhythmia. It can cause paralysis in some animals, but not at the dose which kills humans. Now, norns don't have hearts in C3 (or a circulatory system) so instead vanilla norns have it effecting ATP synthesis.

The cyanide reaction in norns, off the top of my head, is something like 1 cynide + n energy -> 1 cyanide at a ridiculously fast rate on top of shutting off the mitochondria organ, which is why it's almost instantly lethal at any amount. IRL, it kills cells by binding irreversibly to one of the proteins that make up the electron transport chain, which results in the entire system backing up just like it would if there was no O2 available. Not certain how exactly that would be simulated in a creature, though.

Edit 2: To my knowlage, ATP D has no RL counterpart.

(I am a biochemistry major, BTW.)

ETA: One of the reasons toxins act ridiculously fast in norns is twofold:
1) In humans, even fast-acting poisons have to enter the bloodstream and travel around before they can kill you. Norns have a blood sea, so any chemical in their system is assumed to be where it can react.
2) Many toxins (especially cyanide) don't enter the body in active form- cyanide usually comes packaged in things like cyanogenic glycosides, which have to be metabolized before they start having effects.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  5/5/2014

Ah, well the availability of the electron transport chains, specifically NAD+/NADH, are exactly what I think Energy represents in C3, not ATP or something similar like in C1/C2 (though it does fuel its creation)... loss of energy represents NADH or similar electron transporting chemicals or proteins no longer being available to transport electrons, just as if there were no oxygen for them. The protein involved in cyanide toxicity I'm sure must feed into that NAD+/NADH cycle in real animals.

In the case of cyanide, it is blocking up the oxidation process that keeps those vital redox reactions going, so destroying energy really does makes sense in this case if that's what Energy represents... electron transport chains are no longer available to allow reactions to continue, which is what causes the system to back up and the cells to die.

It's definitely simplified, since it skips over that protein in the blood, and how it gets to the cells and acts, and goes right to NADH being disrupted as a consequence, but it does make sense, somewhat... not sure about the speed it kills or having it also stop the mitochondrial organs though (you'd think the fact that it's already destroying energy which kills a lot of the mitochondrial organ's function is enough)

EDIT: Other than that, the only other way I could think of to do it would be to do what you did, and have it slow organs like mitochondria to a crawl/stop. I'm glad you understand this stuff well though, I've really just been learning a lot of this stuff. You really have to be a biochemistry major to understand most of it, lol...

As I said, If you have any examples of genes/systems you've come up with, maybe some creatures/breeds, I would be very happy to see them and incorporate them... I'd love some good ways to make toxins and immune responses work more realistically. It's definitely always good to make the biochemistry more realistic. For me to personally want to do the work on these systems though, it would have to be for a good reason, since tweaking these kinds of reactions properly is very painstaking, I don't fully understand everything going on in many of these systems, and a lot of the important stuff is there in simplified form at least.

EDIT 2: You are right, ATPD does not seem to have a RL counterpart... I was thinking of nerve agents... Really the fact that there is even a medicine for it in Creatures is kind of remarkable considering what it does.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/6/2014  1

Even just something that inhibits the desire for another kisspop session for a little while in the males would be good.

My TCR Norns
 

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