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Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  2/26/2017  1

Posting polls is admittedly a little bit hidden away on this page. One of the few things I have to criticize on CCaves.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  2/26/2017

I'm thinking that all three of these main realms would be fairly big. More or less like ReGenesis. Perhaps the innermost realm will be narrower, but taller, to hold a giant tree with a city in and around it, and a well underneath.
 
Merboy

Merboy



  2/26/2017

Pearldragoness wrote:
...But it would be nice to have the ability to add extra worlds as add-ons in a 'metaroom' fashion.



Yes! Absolutely! Third-party metarooms are where it's at. I'm only talking about the main, initial world.


The Lantern Light.com
 
Merboy

Merboy



  2/26/2017

Bifrost wrote:
I'm thinking that all three of these main realms would be fairly big. More or less like ReGenesis. Perhaps the innermost realm will be narrower, but taller, to hold a giant tree with a city in and around it, and a well underneath.



Ok I see. Yes, that sounds excellent then. I just really hated how small the aquarium room was and the jungle, etc. So very small.


The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/26/2017

Metarooms don't put less strain on the machine, it's not like a normal game where only things on screen really have to be processed, things have to be processed all over all the time; so metarooms were just a design decision.

I disprove of having multiple regenesis sized worlds: because it sounds like work. The more there is to do, the less likely it will get completed. Just look at how long C12DS took to make, then add the time of making the backround onto that, and multiply by 3!

 
Razgriz

Razgriz



  2/26/2017  1

Uh, making a product that you expect people to buy means work needs to be put in.

My suggestion would be to focus on one initial world and from there if the game gets traction upon release you could start considering developing another world.

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo


 visit Doringo's website: Abacus & Ettinus
  2/26/2017

Geat_Masta wrote:
I disprove of having multiple regenesis sized worlds: because it sounds like work. The more there is to do, the less likely it will get completed. Just look at how long C12DS took to make, then add the time of making the backround onto that, and multiply by 3!



What if different worlds were supported, but they were an entire alternate world, as in "You can have this but not that" kinda deal. Not that the game'd launch with like three different regenesis sized worlds, that is. But that people can create their own Eden which the game can detect and copy as a template for a new world if selected. That way it is mostly just world switcher code and doesn't put too much burden on release. Tell me what you think.

 
Merboy

Merboy



  2/26/2017  1

Doringo wrote:

Geat_Masta wrote:
I disprove of having multiple regenesis sized worlds: because it sounds like work. The more there is to do, the less likely it will get completed. Just look at how long C12DS took to make, then add the time of making the backround onto that, and multiply by 3!



What if different worlds were supported, but they were an entire alternate world, as in "You can have this but not that" kinda deal. Not that the game'd launch with like three different regenesis sized worlds, that is. But that people can create their own Eden which the game can detect and copy as a template for a new world if selected. That way it is mostly just world switcher code and doesn't put too much burden on release. Tell me what you think.



I think you're saying the same thing GM is saying, yes? Making multiple worlds is more work which delays the overall product? But don't get me wrong, I agree with you that third-party worlds are awesome:

I just want to point out that if this game comes to fruition and is able to support third-party metarooms then nothing is off the table. If you want C1, then great, make it. If you prefer C2, same thing. If you want your own world, it's yours for the making. It only enhances the overall gameplay experience. Like I've said since the 90s, third-party development is what makes this Community great (and keeps it going).


The Lantern Light.com
 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  2/26/2017

A focus on the main, middle world at first will be the main priority. The others can be developed later, before or after release.

Another, related topic: Elevators and objects that need to be designed. There should be connections between the world and the designs. Could the elevators be made out of giant seeds/nuts/seed pods? (I was thinking that these could come from the giant tree in the innermost realm.)

 
BaffleBlend

BaffleBlend



  2/26/2017

Bifrost wrote:
Another, related topic: Elevators and objects that need to be designed. There should be connections between the world and the designs. Could the elevators be made out of giant seeds/nuts/seed pods? (I was thinking that these could come from the giant tree in the innermost realm.)



While that's a genuinely good suggestion, all I can think of is "so we're going to make the elevators out of edible things" [nlaugh]

 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  2/26/2017

Nut pods or something plant-ish that could change with the seasons is a nice idea. :)

And about the size, I don't think the initial world size has to be very big, as long as there are enough (free) third-party worlds available. I would consider double the Biodome size already very acceptable.


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  2/26/2017  1

maybe not an edible nut thing, but still planty?

then at least 'eat elevator' would still be a dumb idea for reasons other than 'but then you won't have an elevator'.

although an elevine-like thing might be a good idea! magical teleporter elevators.

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo


 visit Doringo's website: Abacus & Ettinus
  2/26/2017

Merboy wrote:

I think you're saying the same thing GM is saying, yes? Making multiple worlds is more work which delays the overall product? But don't get me wrong, I agree with you that third-party worlds are awesome



I meant it more as a compromise, I wouldn't mind multiple worlds for release.

 
BaffleBlend

BaffleBlend



  2/26/2017

Doringo wrote:

Merboy wrote:

I think you're saying the same thing GM is saying, yes? Making multiple worlds is more work which delays the overall product? But don't get me wrong, I agree with you that third-party worlds are awesome



I meant it more as a compromise, I wouldn't mind multiple worlds for release.


The problem is, not only does that not fix the issue, it creates a new one.

1. It would still take just as much work to create those worlds, and
2. If multiple worlds are being created anyway, why not just put them all in?

 
Wingheart

Wingheart



  2/26/2017

if you make one world for release but have multiple-world compatibility you can then release the other worlds as DLC as well as requiring far less effort for a modder to mod worlds in than if you didn't have multiple-world compatibility right out of the box
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/26/2017  1

Doringo wrote:

What if different worlds were supported, but they were an entire alternate world, as in "You can have this but not that" kinda deal. Not that the game'd launch with like three different regenesis sized worlds, that is. But that people can create their own Eden which the game can detect and copy as a template for a new world if selected. That way it is mostly just world switcher code and doesn't put too much burden on release. Tell me what you think.



That's more or less already supported, the selection of available worlds to create in a new game is just the list of the folders in the "scripts" directory, formerly bootstrap, minus the "common" directory, which is shared scripts, like cheese machines and creature interactions.

The actual world creation thing hasn't been created yet though. And there's nothing stopping you from injecting new metarooms like in C3/DS aside from me not having made the object injector yet.

@bifrost I like the seedpod idea, or maybe something like a jackfruit?

The game could also be released in early access with a single world.

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande


 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  2/27/2017  1

I had a world idea way back when which had gourd houses suspended in the trees, as an alternative to the stereotypical treehouses. (It had been meant to be incorporated into a sort of Flash Freetures-esque game, but I scrapped it when it became apparent that Flash was falling out of favor.) Maybe something similar would work here? It kind of sounds like everyone wants a Photoshopped background rather than a 3D one, but I still like the idea of suspended gourds. :\


 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/27/2017

@ghosthande I like that idea, it fixes any problem of the treehouses being too similar.
 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  2/27/2017

The idea is cool, and gourd and other similar houses have a nice feel to them. I'm a bit worried about how they'll affect the proportions, though. Can we make houses like that without making the kraptorfawnlets look rodent sized?

And will wooden tree houses look too similar to Creatures' straw houses?

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo


 visit Doringo's website: Abacus & Ettinus
  2/27/2017

Ghosthande wrote:
I had a world idea way back when which had gourd houses suspended in the trees, as an alternative to the stereotypical treehouses.



I recall the treehouses in the norn terrarium look rather gourd-like, not quite to the same extent but when you view the ones that are off in the background, they are very round. The ones that norns walk through are cutaways though. Not that this hinders anything at all, I would totally like to see gourd houses.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  2/28/2017

The norn terrarium houses have nice, organic shapes. I'm more inclined towards something a bit more Norse/Celtic/fantasy/elven inspired, though.
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/28/2017

To give an idea of what I'm up to now this has to be done for each light source, every time it moves This is a quite complicated operation, and I can only do it for subsections of metarooms currently, when I move onto the next subsection it seems to be checking things that are already in shadow.

(Around 1/2 the time is spent getting arctangents)

The point is, I wouldn't count on the bioluminescence being possible, this operation seems to be quite slow. I'll see if I can optimize it, but it may be possible to make the bioluminescent creatures brighter than lighting says they should be. Alternately, bioluminescent creatures could be like snails or turtles and not move very much.

Or, I could make it so that there's a flag that stops an object from doing the lighting calculations, in this case the light could go through walls if the illumination radius is too large, but it would be faster.

Also, I don't think it is possible for a wooden walkway to have vertical stripes of light beneath it, or similar effects.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  2/28/2017

Bioluminescent plants and/or mushrooms, then. And perhaps fireflyesque things that shine without illuminating anything other than themselves. Or perhaps just light producing crystals to light up caves and burrows.
 
Brynn

Brynn



  2/28/2017

Geat_Masta, what do you think about light fixtures that have different fixed positions? Say, for example, in the underground area under the tree you can manipulate a large lamp lens to illuminate one side of the chamber or the other, depending on whether you would want "sunlight" on certain areas - perhaps they reduce the growth of the dark-reliant ecosystem?

It would be moving, but only for a short time, and in preset positions - you could even make it so that the lens turns off while it's rotating so you wouldn't have to do the calculations while it swings.

Just throwing ideas out there to see if they're feasible.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/28/2017

Probably you would do that by not having the light move at all, and just having 2 fixed lights switch on and off, that would be simpler to implement.

To put it in perspective, I spent all day optimizing the lighting casting, (not determining if objects are lit, the step needed before that can be determined). And it now takes up 18% of a processor when i attach a single light to a ball. Earlier today it used 100% of the processor and slowed down the engine by more than half.

This is why games generally have how lights affect scenes saved to files, even modern AAA games engines do this, so it's not that I'm doing it poorly. What I described before with light going through walls if the illumination radius was wrong, is what will happen with any light in a AAA game engine where the lighting isn't saved to a file.

A big question is where exactly the sun is supposed to be relative to the world, and how to calculate it's casting. I'm thinking I would just use diffuse lighting with different values for indoors/outdoors. Meaning there would be a light extremely far away from the top of a metaroom, and it would be used to caclulate indoors/outdoors.

But the sunlight would change by changing the colors of the light emitted, rather than the light actually moving, you might have a 'sun' that does sunsets, but it would be one of the moving lights mentioned before, there for the sake of the camera.

So, when you think about what is feasible, remember that AAA games have essentially the same limitations, and they can do the effects you want. It's more that they're doing a magic trick than a trick of the light. I am limited compared to those engines in things like physics though, e.g. I can't have bridges that move when the creature shifts it's weight, this is for the same reason that I couldn't use a typical physics framework like box2D: the collision in creatures, with permeability and so on, is VERY different from most games.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  2/28/2017

What you're doing with the lighting is far beyond what I had imagined for this game. It will add new levels of character to the experience. Just don't work yourself to the ground with it. It'll be great even in the simplest way you describe it. I suggest the sun gets placed above camera view, and lighting changes colour, but not direction, according to time of day and weather. If we want it to be seen, it will look good even without changing the direction of the lights.
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/28/2017

What were you imagining when I talked about lighting?

Personally, I prefer to count from the start of when I try to clone biochemistry, to when I decide it's not good enough and throw it out. In those terms this would be the 12th time I've tried to create my own creatures since 2005. That this is the first one I went public with should tell you what I think the potential of the project is.

Anyway, the ray casting was a necessity because the sun creates heat, which affects the weather and air currents, so I had to trace the infrared light.

Current light ratio: I'm checking 1 light path for every 140 potential paths. The problem with lighting is generally that it's highly redundant, and getting rid of crap you don't need is the actual challenge in getting it to work.

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande


 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  2/28/2017  2

That all sounds awesome.

Just a quick update to say that I am working on the sprites still. I have the entire face finished (for all expressions) and just need to finish the ears, cheek ruffs, and some other body parts.



 
Merboy

Merboy



  2/28/2017

Ghosthande wrote:
That all sounds awesome.

Just a quick update to say that I am working on the sprites still. I have the entire face finished (for all expressions) and just need to finish the ears, cheek ruffs, and some other body parts.





*squeals*

"cheek ruffs" ooommggggg I can't WAIT!!!!


The Lantern Light.com
 
Merboy

Merboy



  2/28/2017

For those of us (me) who are not really "gamers" per se, how does this light stuff work? I'm finding it difficult to wrap my head around because I'm picturing, say, Creatures 1 Albia but with a sun. I know you guys said it should be above camera, but does it move? In the "evening" does the light turn pink and orange? Is there a proper night or is it just sort of blackness because nothing is shining? Forgive my ignorance, I am but a common merthing.

The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/28/2017

It isn't hard coded to do anything, you write scripts that will fire at sunrise/sunset to change the lighting, the sunrise/sunset times will change based on time time of year, and the latitude you gave the scheduling function. So you can have equal days like around the equator, or norway days, etc.

Yes, if lighting was enabled and you had no lights things would just be black, aside from sprites that don't have sufficient information to be lit.

Okay, when we say above the camera, we mean ABOVE the camera. e.g. if you had a metaroom say 8352x1200 the sun would be located at { 4176, -149600000000 } the reason it's so far away is that at that distance the rays coming down from it are effectively parallel, (this is the same reason our sun's beams are basically parallel). And this is used to build the light mesh that determines if things are inside or outside.

Once that's done, the sun would give the whole metaroom diffuse lighting, then just the outside bits would receive ambient lighting.

ambient -- light that comes from all directions
diffuse -- light that comes from a point source
specular--the color of reflections generated from a light source

You could set the colors of these either with an RGB triplet, or a color temperature.

So the sun wouldn't move, you would just change those variables at different times. If you wanted a moving sun, you would have a second sun that actually moves around the sky, but it isn't lighting anything, it's just a visual effect.

Google "lighting normal gif" and look at the iamges tab, the first one is like a crystal thing, that's a 2D image, it looks 3D because it has lighting and a normal map.

So say you wanted a glass tube like in C2, it has 4 textures you need to fill out: albedo, normal, microsurface and reflectivity.

For the albedo map, you have a very dark green mostly transparent color (alpha at least 16), against a transparent background. Just a solid color is all you need.

For the normal map, you have a gradient from black to bright green going up the tube, that will create normals that will make it look like a round tube, for more detail, you can make another one with the gradient going the other way and put it behind the tube sprite.

for the microsurface you put in little scratches and cracks that appeared on the tube over the years of wear.

for the metalicity, you color it say, red, to indicate that the surface is highly reflective.

And that's it, that will render a 3D glass tube in engine.

 
Merboy

Merboy



  2/28/2017

Oh ok. :)

Ok, so what you're saying is that... oh, let's say one of Ghostlove's Faunlets is standing in a garden and "dawn" comes. What you're saying is that in the night ambient light (which I assume will be RGB colored to blue or purple or what have you) is replaced by a growing diffuse light of yellow and white? Otherwise, without any light sources at all, the Faunlet would be black in a black area... Does this mean that Ghosthande is rendering the Faunlets to have... well... Ok, I guess this is my question... how does the light "shine on" and "reflect on" the various features of things. The Faunlet is standing there with its cheek ruffs and the sun grows brighter because it's day; does this mean that Ghost is rendering the Faunlets to have textured fur and facial features and dimensional limbs which interact with the light? Or does the light simply "brighten" the overall image of the Faunlet?


The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/28/2017

the images have 5 texture maps: baked, albedo, normal, microsurface, reflectivity.

The normal and microsurface maps are best made by processing a 3D model.

Currently ghosthande is only making the baked maps as far as I know, so it would merely brighten the sprites. If the other 4 are present then it will be dimensional limbs that interact with the light.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  2/28/2017

My attempt at 3D modeling a lagoraptor head in 20 minutes:

https://github.com/pdJeeves/libFreetures/blob/master/images/Screenshot_20170228_222731.png

Bear in mind that I haven't done 3D modeling since 2009 and I can barely remember the interface, also the rotation function seems to only work when it wants to, maybe it can't recognize my mouse properly.

So yeah, pretty terrible.

My conclusion is that it's probably best to create a bump map (white close to camera, black far from camera), and create the normal/microsurface maps from that, somehow, rather than making 3D models and baking the normal images from that. Especially in how ghosthande seems to have the same problem with 3D that made me give up on 3D rendering: I could only make inanimate things, any living thing i tried to model was firmly in the uncanny and off-putting.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

I was imagining lighting as one source illuminating its nearby environment. Nothing fancy at all.

You describe five texture maps. Normal is the basic image. Reflectivity (/metalicity?) adds reflection. Microsurface adds scratches, scars tear and wear (how does this effect the effect differently than a normal image with scratches drawn on directly?). I didn't quite catch what Aledo is for adding a tint to transparent surfaces (right?). What does baked mean, and how does it differ from normal?

 
 
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