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Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/11/2017  2

More texture progress:


 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  3/12/2017

That's pretty! I love it!
 
Merboy

Merboy
United States  


  3/12/2017

I keep trying to post this in a reasonable size but I can't. So voila:

http://i.imgur.com/sslqi6G.jpg


The Lantern Light.com
 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande
United States  

 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  3/12/2017

I love that. I can just see bioluminescent fungi growing there. It would be awesome.

Google won't help you, because Rascii's code doesn't fully match conventional forum code. There's a [commands] link right next to the text box you write your post in, which explains how these things work.

Merboy wrote:
Question: just to be sure, we've agreed that the max height of the Faunlets will be 256, ne?



Not completely, I don't think. I know that Geat_Masta prefers 256 px height but for me that is depressingly small and hard to see anything. I was going to make a poll to see what the consensus was but, for aforementioned reasons, I haven't gotten to it yet.



 
Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/13/2017

@Merboy:
(img=http://i.imgur.com/sslqi6G.jpg)(w=1000)(/img)
Replace ( and ) with [ and ].

to produce this:



Could you make it a bit brighter? I think the engine is going to darken it later, depending on light sources.

(Edited post.)

 
Merboy

Merboy
United States  


  3/13/2017  1

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that post to sound so sassy. That actually had more to do with something else offline than anything here.

Moving on yaay! I'm so glad you guys like it and yes I can totally make it brighter or change colors or what have you.


The Lantern Light.com
 
Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/13/2017

Sassy that walk all you want. :D

With a little more brightness, I can add some of those features onto the Niflheim town mansion thingy.

Just noticed thise golden specs. Are those phosphorus crystals?

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/13/2017

I can't get smells or the weather simulation to run fast enough to be usable. The best option for the weather simulation seems to be to get rid of it. But I'm not sure what to do about the smells, What baffles me is I don't know how it would have been possible for CL to do it either, given that my code is necessarily faster than theres, because it interpolates smell over a regular grid, while CL would have used lots of memory jumps.
 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  3/13/2017

Maybe use a lot of small rooms like CL did and just do something like what CL did, with the CA links and so on?

CA links also nicely solve the problem of creatures not being able to tell that a smell is coming from 'up'-they can't smell it unless they're somewhere where it's physically possible for them to reach it.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/13/2017

Can you have smell work like light, but with less range?
 
Pilla

Pilla
Belgium  

 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/13/2017  1

All looking so pretty.

Bifrost, don't forget to edit this part -
The picture looks so pretty already. Can't wait weeeheee


GM: You're using a grid based system. Does making the grid bigger help? Or reducing the refresh time of calculations?

How will kreatures smell anyways? Nose or feet? :P

 
Merboy

Merboy
United States  


  3/13/2017



So I lightened it up and basically saw a battlefield of pixelated disaster. This thing is like a Monet, you *really* need to stand back for it to all come together. Anyways, though. Here it is lightened up a bit... Hopefully I will get this in some sort of presentable shape soon.


The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/13/2017  1

@bifrost using light would make it even slower, the only reason lights work is that you can expect there to be < 100 of them moving across all metarooms. Similar code is used for vision, so this will likely be the ultimate bottleneck of number of creatures. Regardless, because there will be > 100 food items at any given time, just checking if a creature is near one becomes an ordeal.

Okay this is the basic problem of the smells: the rooms need to be small so the smell 'flows' right, the basic math of it is simple: This is the smell code:

void SmellGrid::interpolateTick(float dt)
{
const int N = (squares.x-1)*(squares.y-1);
const int w = squares.x;

for(int i = w; i < N; ++i)
{
uPoint2B rate = diffusionRate[ i];

for(int k = 0; k < NUMBER_SMELLS; ++k)
{
int temp = (smells[ i-1][k] + smells[ i+1][k])*rate.x
+ (smells[i-squares.x][k] + smells[i+squares.x][k])*rate.y;
next[ i][k] = std::max((temp >> 10) + emitters[ i][k], 0);
}
}
}

The problem with the regular grid is that each square of the grid needs to be small: if each cell is 1256x256 then a floor can be in the middle of one cell, and in the middle of the one right above it, the 256 px is enough for a creature to walk there, but oops: there's no cell! cause both intersect with something!

Now let's try 128x128. Well that usually works, but in sloped tunnels it fails completely.

So I made them 64x64: slopes work, enough space. And any time a creature queries a cell it could be found. (probably it will start at the head and go down until it finds a cell it can read from).

If I make there be 1/2 as many cells: now you can have 2 metarooms before it slows down. yay. Reducing time between updates might be an option. But I would need some way to stagger them also. Doing all the metarooms in 1 tick periodically would cause the same problems intermittently.

Now you might say: "well just caclulate a smell room map from the transparent part of the room map image." Which sounds good but doesn't work. The problem is that smells can't be divided into tiles like rooms are, they need to be divided differently, and this means that the rooms generated will get progressively smaller as we go towards the bottom right of the map. So it would ultimately be worse.

The solution would be either: make smell maps by hand, or GPU accelerate it. I'm not sure how viable the second is given that the GPU is being used for things, but that code is the kind of thing GPUs are REALLY good at. (I have no idea how to GPU accelerate code).

Does anyone know what the update rate of CAs in the original game? I tried checking openc2e, but I couldn't find what actually calls the update function.

 
Merboy

Merboy
United States  


  3/14/2017

For the bioluminescent fungi/mushrooms/crystals et al, how does that work graphically? Can I make some and put them into this crypt area so that they look regular and will be animated with light later or do I make sprites with them lit up as well as regular? Am I making sense?

The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/14/2017

I'm not too sure how it would work yet tbh.

Most likely the sprite wouldn't light up, as much as there would be a light in front of the sprite, and the sprite would change to a lit up version. But there may be a better way of doing it, I haven't looked into it too much.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/14/2017

I'm not adding any light sources to the background just yet. Besides, I imagine that the mushrooms will be edible and regrowing, so adding them as separate sprites later on makes more sense.
 
Pilla

Pilla
Belgium  

 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/14/2017

I'm not sure whether the lighting engine accounts for colored lighting, so to be sure I would make it quite bright, as it -will- be darkened by the engine, but not brightened. (I think?)

So if you want something to be bright, make it bright. If there are static elements that emit light in the background, account for the light color and make the surroundings just a bit brighter. I would definitely try to avoid making it too dark.

Good job people! It's turning out beautiful. <3

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/14/2017

It allows for colored lighting. You can use temperature color as well as RGB, it can lighten and darken. I would recommend making everything having a lightness of 50% grey on average. Unless it's the baked map.

And don't forget ambient occlusion is stored separately.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/14/2017  2

I think the best option for smells and weather is to freeze them in time, so they never tick, but write the supporting code to ask about smells and so on, thus if I ever figure out how to fix it, I don't have to do anything else to patch it in, and any agents that query smells will work.

After giving up on that I mostly tried to get text rendering working. European languages have far too many letters! This would be so much easier if I could just do ASCII and forget it!

EDIT: moved to it's own thread.

 
Merboy

Merboy
United States  


  3/14/2017

That sounds like a neat idea, I just think it should be fleshed out a bit and then get all the details down before someone tackles the graphics of that project. But otherwise, yes, love it. It's like that pink fairy/doozer thing from Creatures. Of course if you're interested in Navi it could just be a ball of light that flitters around, though that doesn't sound very interesting. I'm sure we can do better.

I made something similar for Ainarda that I don't think ever got incorporated (referring to a Navi/firefly/fairy thing):





The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/14/2017

EDIT: moved to another thread at suggestion of malkin.

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  3/15/2017

Geat_Masta wrote:
Can everyone post their system specs, I'm not sure what the specs I should be targeting.

pls post:

- GB of RAM

- GPU info:
How to find card info

-Processor info:

Open up "System Information" by:
Start Menu > Accessories > System Tools > System Information
Then once in "System Information" open:
System Information > System Summary
On the right will be the "Processor", this will give you the full description of your CPU.


I'm asking for CPU because the ghz/core count doesn't mean very much. An AMD 4 core bulldozer CPU @ 3.6 ghz will be less than 1/2 the speed of an intel 4 core from the same year.

My current build has a CPU with 4 cores and 3.6 ghz, from pre-bulldozer, if I replace it with a current year 4 core 3.6 ghz CPU I would expect a 300% increase in computing power, at least.




This might be better in a new thread to get peoples' attention?


My TCR Norns
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/18/2017

Okay, so I keep running into new problems, changing the mapping from using the computer generated collision to C3/DS style rooms seems unavoidable. I'm trying to make the tools more usable than that map editor. But it looks like I have to rewrite a lot of stuff.
 
Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/20/2017  2

More background progress:


 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/20/2017  1

Progress on the map editor rebuild:

https://youtu.be/Rbm00fVE080

Although it turns out mapping does need to be done by hand so CAs/hearing works correctly; it should be easier to do mapping because it can use data from the room map; this change means that wooden walkways/glass tubes and similar should have 1 px thick edges for it to connect permeabilities correctly.

Once I can speed that up a bit, and have full rooms instead of the right/left side, I'll add some cutting operations, (a lot of metaroom maps look like regular columns that then have horizontal cuts made across the whole metaroom).

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/20/2017  1

BTW: if the background's dimensions aren't multiples of 4 it will be padded with black pixels, which will be off screen, but create compression artifacts. To minimize artifacting they should be multiples of 256.
 
Bifrost

Bifrost
Norway  


  3/21/2017

That's multiples of 256 on both axis, right? Do you want this as one final image, or divided up into separate rectangular rooms, which each consists of multiples of 256?
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/21/2017  1

256 on each axis. Essentially, if this isn't done the left and bottom of the background will be darker than they should be at the last pixel, this will create visible seams when 2 metarooms connect.

If it there isn't a lot of negative space, and you don't need to create impossible spaces, leave it as 1 big image, otherwise cut it up. In general we don't want lots of places where it's possible to move from one map to another, because objects between the two need more processor power to deal with them.

 
Kule

Kule



  3/30/2017  2

I'm coming to the end of working on my breed for C1 and so I'd like to help out with Kreatures if anything is needed.

I saw a pet(creature) design posted back on the previous page and I like the direction but I'd also like to input my ideas. I think if at all possible it would be really cool to have animals that can switch between bipedal and quadrupedal. Maybe even a physics system so they can climb up on to ledges or scramble up hills. No idea the level of knowledge and work that would take but it would be like a 'next gen' to what we have in the original games.

I put together a concept of a creature I think would be great to animate and pull it off.

Neutral



Happy



Experimenting with realism/cartoon



dirty example of quadruped dash

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/30/2017  1

I too would like to have the climbing, but it doesn't seem too possible. Jumping is possible, but not swimming. I rather like the otsel design. Maybe the run animation would be quadrapedal? Or maybe a sneaking animation?

I think I'm going to change it so that the CA map is seperated from the collision map, this is to decrease the time until release. The downside is a certain amount of redundancy, the upside is i can computer generate the maps.

The CAs will use the fluid map, Once my computer is back up I'll make an example map for regenesis.


 
Kule

Kule



  3/30/2017

Have you seen the recent game Rain World? If you could pull off an animation system like that it would be incredible.

So if I understand in your current system when the creature decides to climb a ledge for instance, the engine would play a specific animation? Do animations have the ability to vary based on ground positions and are you going to use a skeleton rig to allow for smoother animations?

Just asking as I think this is a good opertunity to fix the lack luster system the original games used.

On my phone currently and it keeps crashing but scroll down this page and you can see the animation system in the gifs.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/30/2017

At a guess rain world uses 3d models and a flat shader. I wouldn't be able to do that. If kreatures sells well and i can start a company that's the kind of thing i would want to have in kreatures 2, but it wouldn't be possible to patch in.

I want you to look at this file

Thats the current testing genome, the comments in it should answer your question. Hopefully... The point is typing on an ipad is terrible, and I'm trying to avoid it.

 
Kule

Kule



  3/31/2017

I checked the gen file and it's basically a straight rip from the current series? So I assume the animation system works the same then? Just thinking as it's the creatures you stare at the most of the time maybe some more effort could be used to make them more fluid.

Games like rayman origins use a 2D engine but use a skeletal system to allow for sprite deformation along with key frames for defined poses. Another idea would be to add invisible markers to the hands and then if the floor is detected at a 45 degree angle the creatures hands are attached to the floor to go quadrupedal then at about 20 degrees they detach to go back into a bipedal scramble for the remainder of the slope.

If none of that is possible, then consider splitting the body into neck, torso, abdomen. That alone will allow for far more natural animations.

Edit: adding to that If ears and wrist could also be split off that would be great and allow for many more emotions. Wrists so you could have real drop animations and smacks, etc.

Would also be great for quadrupedal animations if the tail had two parts to allow for a slight flex in counter balance.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  3/31/2017  1

As the complexity of the animation system goes up the ability to mutate goes down. How exactly could it be deformed and still be mutable?

The animations are more fluid, because the poses are now keyframes.

I think you're talking about a passive dynamic walking simulation. If you can find a paper on one--that would account for things like jumping, climbing, etc-- then I'll take a a look at implementing one; but walking is much more complex than you give it credit for.

It's no problem for me to add more segments, i designed it for a system like you described, but it actually implements the creatures system because that's what i had for sprites; however it creates more work in getting the poses and gaits made.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta
United States  


  4/3/2017  1

Since I never clarified this: the minimal size for a piece of collision geometry in the room maps is 1 pixel high, 3 across, if a color in the room map has a 6 pixel gap transparency in the middle of it, that gap is skipped and not used to generate collision. The reason for this is that it's probably an artifact of the photoshop smart cutting tool, or a result of anti-aliasing.

It's likely I'll change it in the future so the collision map is smaller than the actual room, and just scale up the rooms once their found, to speed up the processing of room maps.

Similarly, the way the lossy texture compression works suggests there's a way to use images the size that creatures used rather than doubling them, and handling the scale up in compression. However this would produce incorrect results when handling transparency.

My current idea for a hand made CA map would provide an 32x speedup over what I have. Considering there is currently visible lag, and that means 32x probably isn't enough. OpenC2e didn't seem to have a problem with this, the issue may be just that I'm using regenesis for testing and it's just so big it's causing problems.

I keep having to try new ideas for getting CA mapping to work correctly, they always start out promising but I realize why they won't work for some reason or another. The inverse collision rooms seems to be the best option, but I'm not sure how to solve for them--specifically the case where there is 1 piece of collision geometry at the bottom of a room, and 3 or more at the top which occupies the same x-coordinate range--after that's done optimizing them turns out to not be that bad.

 

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