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Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  3/1/2017

Bake map is an image with all the light and shadows currently cast on your mesh saved for texturing purposes.

It can be used as a normal map if that's what you want, but it's usually small part of the finished normal.

But I'm only really familiar with how textures work in SecondLife/Opensim, that's how bake maps are used there.

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande


 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  3/1/2017

Geat_Masta wrote:
Currently ghosthande is only making the baked maps as far as I know, so it would merely brighten the sprites. If the other 4 are present then it will be dimensional limbs that interact with the light.


I did not know how exactly you intended to use them, so my intention was to just make the models, texture map them, and see where you wanted to go from there.

I have not made any new models yet or texture mapped the old ones (few of them actually have texture maps--I was lazy) because work and dealing with my cat's veterinary needs has taken up most of my time lately. I've been focusing the time I have on the kritter parts.

Geat_Masta wrote:
Especially in how ghosthande seems to have the same problem with 3D that made me give up on 3D rendering: I could only make inanimate things, any living thing i tried to model was firmly in the uncanny and off-putting.


Gee, thanks.

Geat_Masta wrote:
Bake map is an image with all the light and shadows currently cast on your mesh saved for texturing purposes.


So here's a question: are you going to be using 3D models in the background, or do you just want flat images basically? I don't really understand why you want baked textures on a 3D model as opposed to just having finished renders of the model, unless the in-game world is going to be 3D and you're incorporating the models directly. All the talk about Bifrost's backgrounds etc. made it sound like that wasn't the intention.



 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017  1

@Ghosthande baked 3D model and baked from a 3D model are not the same thing. So let's check wikipedia and we find an example of a normal map being baked from a 3D model and applied to a flat surface. It doesn't look right because you aren't viewing it straight on, but remember the flat surface is just white, the normal map is providing the shading because of where the light source is.

The reason that normal maps are baked from 3D models is that how a normal map will affect shading is really hard to understand, nothing more, and nothing less.

No 3D models will be used in engine at all, it's just really difficult to make normal maps without them. I've been looking into if something easier to understand like bump maps can be converted to normal maps, or if it just doesn't have the bits needed to do it.

@bifrost remember when I posted this link And said it explained albedo/normal/microsurface/metalicity? Did you look at that?

The red channel of the microsurface map is the AO they reference, the green channel is the cavity. This is using the metalness workflow they reference.

An albedo map is devoid of shadows and highlights, it is only diffuse color, because if the albedo map is being used, the normal map will provide shading and highlights.

If the lighting engine is active the baked map isn't used for anything, it's only used if the others aren't available, or if the frame rate drops and lighting gets turned off.

Seriously, just google normal map/albedo map/microsurface map/metalicity and you'll get most of the answers!

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017

I was thinking about how you can load a genome with just pose/gait/appearance and get a skell, essentially an immortal zombie that is used for testing animations. And I'm wondering if I should use the skell as a player character, and interact with the lagoraptors like a shepard rather than an abstract hand.
 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

I actually missed that link earlier. There are a lot of technical terminology that I'll need some time understanding. I'll focus on the line map at first and get that done, and work my way up to the more technical aspects.

I'm currently working on adding in the city of Niflheim, as a system of rooms, corridors and burrows. The tree and its roots, together with the city, will make up the main part of the world. There's dtill room for other additions. Most likely, the underground space between the forest around the tree, and the city, will be a subterranean swamp.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017

@Bifrost sounds good!
 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/1/2017

Sounds wonderful, Bifrost. Do you have any WIPs?

I actually would love to be involved with the map design too. Not with creating images (since I'm only good with traditional media xD), but I'd love to make some sketches or something.


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017

@Pearldragoness I encourage it! just upload sketches of whatever areas and we'll see if they can fit in.
 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

Work In Progress:


The city of Niflheim to the right is coming in, existing mostly underground, inside of a mountain. The forest is marked by two large trees, while other trees will make it into a parallax background. The swamp is still in its mere beginning, and the field between the forest and the city mountain is still empty. There's also a lot of room to the left of the biggest tree. It might just be filled with water...

 
Merboy

Merboy



  3/1/2017  1

I certainly think it looks good, I just wonder if perhaps the area to the right has too many rooms? I can foresee an elevator nightmare happening there. :X

The Lantern Light.com
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017

@bifrost, okay, when you were trying to import regensis I implied something to you, because it's hard to explain. Like REALLY hard. But it looks like I have to. Going back to the attachment command:

A.attach(A, 0, 0);

The first argument is direction {left=0, right=1, up=2, down=3}, second is offset.

Will make A a wrapping world, but you can do other things too. So let's try something else.

A.attach(A, 0, 600);

Now A has been offset by 600 pixels, meaning that if you go to the top right corner of A and try to go right you can't loop around. Why? because there's nothing attached there. The attachment is 600 pixels down, so if you go from {rightmost, 600} and go right you get to {leftmost, 0}.

You can also attach multiple backgrounds to one side:

Say you have these backgrounds:
A is 8535 x 1200
B is 1000 x 1200
C is 1000 x 1200

A.attach(B, 3, 1000);
A.attach(C, 3, 3000);

This is going to attach B and C to A, both are attaching to the bottom, but to different spots on the bottom.

So B could be the waterfall beneath the tree, and C could be the mines beneath the city. Meaning that you don't have to worry about filling all the space between them with something: there's just nothing there, the camera can't go there.

But say you now come up with a great idea for a swamp that goes between them, but uh-oh the swamp would be 2000 pixels wide, and you only have 1000 px between A and B to work with! This isn't a problem at all. The top of the swamp background can't attach to the garden between the city and the forest, because it isn't long enough, you just need to add some headroom and it'll go!.

So we have the swamp D: 2000x1000 And:

B.attach(D, 0, 200);
C.attach(D, 1, 200);

we offset the swamp by 200 to make sure it isn't touching the garden and feeding conflicting information to the mapping system. But now the swamp is bigger than the garden, and it fits just fine.

Finally we make another room E: 1000x5000, and attach it to D:

D.attach(E, 2, 500);

Now D has a part on top of it, that goes up though where A should be. This is a problem right? because they intersect? nope! it's fine, because D isn't directly attached to A: it has no way of knowing A exists, and neither does the mapping system. Now you can add cameras to E and use them to make it visible while in A. but you don't have to, if you don't it just doesn't render, because the engine has no way of knowing another metaroom is intersecting this one.

///-----------------------------

So, my thought is that too much of the map is underground, the problem is that when you make a tall map you have to commit to so much of it being undergound, the problem being that there's only so much creative freedom you have underground, because the background basically needs to be an earthen wall.

in C2 most of the map was underground, we had 2 gardens, 3 greenhouses and a swamp undeground as a result. That really didn't make any sense, I think they just wrote themselves into a corner with that decision: they wanted the volcano or something, and this forced the whole map to expand and all the other space had to be filled with something. You don't need to do that.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

Breaking up rooms should be fairly easy, if it's needed. I decided to make a heap of rooms like this to make it feel more like an underground city. The lower parts could work as a sort of crypt area, or entrance(s) to a crypt. In Norse mythology, Hel, the realm (and queen) of the dead, is placed in Niflheim.
 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

I'll try to read that a few more times, to understand it better. But won't it result in an illogical map? Things that work in-game, but would be impossible in a real world? Also, there are tons of different ways a cave could look, but I do see the problem. Besides the entire game being very "cavey", it'll also make the playing experience feel darker, more cramped and claustrophobic, as opposed to a more arid, breathing wilderness.
 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017  1

Making maps that are impossible in the real world was in fact the goal, and why I had to roll my own physics engine.

I also think that the heap of rooms is too tightly packed in general, and could be stretched out a bit. Maybe a hanging city like the western air temple or glacia would be better.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

Yes! Floating cities, islands, temples, or just trees!

How about something like this, though, for simplicity's sake for a first realm?

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017

I feel like it's too tightly packed. What I would do is have the waterfall move up and to the left of the trees, and have the pool be in front of them, and flowing along like a river until it goes into the swamp. And have those dead trees close to the swamp, cause they remind me of a swamp.

I would have the swamp have lots of glowing lights floating about, wil-o-whisps-like. And I would move the city into another realm, you would be able to see it through cameras like we discussed about the purple mountians.

Like I said before, big open spaces look bad in drawings, but in game they're fine. And they keep it from feeling claustrophobic.

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande


 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  3/1/2017  2

At a glance, your math example makes no sense to me... I will have to read this again later when I have more time. But I like the idea of overlapping rooms. Would this allow for (say) functional staircases, or features like bridges that can be walked past or over, instead of just one or the other?


 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017

More like this?

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017  1

@ghosthande. no to the stairs, yes to the bridges. It doesn't make sense because I'm not using euclidean geometry. Think about the parts of the world as pieces of paper, and the attach command like tape

@bifrost, sort of, but moving the whole water thing up, so the underground takes up < 1/3 of the map instead of 1/2 and the swamp is next to the forest instead of below it. I know you like the underground root area, but I think that having the roots visible underwater with old stuff tangled in them would be more effective.

 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/1/2017  1


This could be a small part (ignore the horrriiiiible quality. I couldn't find an eraser and this is just a smartphone picture. xD) where there would be a level difference on the surface. More at the top left (paper too small...) there could be some pretty fields and little rivers and a geyser that creates the water that falls down the waterfall.

For the geyser, maybe something like this, but more forest-y, with a little veeeerrryyy shallow puddle?
Geyser stuff

Edit: Also, it wcould be possible to extend the underwater area so it'll reach the big tree underground thing.


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/1/2017  1

A geyser! I love it!

If you could trace the most important lines with a pen or a thin marker, and take a picture with more light, I could try to implement it directly onto the upcoming swamp area.

 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/1/2017  1

I will trace and scan tomorrow ;) Maybe with geyser, wooo.

Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017  2

@bifrost My instinct is to change the cable car to a mine cart and put it under the city. Add some pipes going from the geyser up to the city, maybe? Like in a biolumenescent mushroom forest instead of a planty forest.
 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo


 visit Doringo's website: Abacus & Ettinus
  3/1/2017  1

Geat_Masta wrote:
@bifrost My instinct is to change the cable car to a mine cart



Why not a zipline? They're pretty similar. You could give it like a little harness that straps around the lagoraptor too, to save the animation troubles.

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/1/2017

I asked my sister what she thought of the sketches:

my sister wrote:

well i think its weird for a forest to be underground anyhow, but it could be more magical looking than the rest of the map. I also think it would be cool to incorporate other made things into the world like pirate ships or train cars or something that makes you question how it got there. Kind of like the old piano or jukebox in c1.. norns obviously didn’t make those things so where did they come from? I think those things create a story about the game in the mind of the player.



I think that's a good point, even if C3/DS had no public story, the existence of the ark in space would give you a pretty good idea of what the backstory was. Maybe the plot can be told entirely though the scenery and world.

Bifrost hinted at something like this before, saying we could have an area with statues of the creators, but I think when I was first playing creatures the piano and such made me think more about the backstory than the statue of nornitity. Subtly is where it's at!

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  3/1/2017

I always figured the jukebox, piano player, etc. were like goldfish/hamster/toddler toys...



My TCR Norns
 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/2/2017



Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande


 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  3/2/2017  2

Don't know if anyone would be interested, but I just dug up some old concept art from the official games that's been hiding on my hard drive for years. I rather like the idea of a pathway going through a big skull...


 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/2/2017

That skull pathway thing is really pretty!

I've been sketching a little more, I'll just drop my sketch here :P

There could be some sort of underground bioluminescent mushroom cave thing somewhere.

The 'plains' could be hot and desert-y in the summer, green in the spring/autumn and icy in the winter.
I actually wanted to add in the castle too but I always run out of space on my paper. XD


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  3/2/2017

...ufo? Silly like CA? or creepy like XCOM?

I feel like the mushroom cave should be bigger, maybe the lake could leak into it for another waterfall.


 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/2/2017

I actually think the mushroom cave should be at the other end of the mountain, maybe with a waterfall from the sewer water from the city which makes for toxic stuff that makes the mushrooms glow. Or something.

I just drew a generic ufo for clarity, but that ufo could be a part of a spaceship, one of the 'lobes' of a spaceship that has crashed onto the world. There could be some cut-through of the crashed compartiment, where high technology stuff could be. The spaceship could be overgrown with vegetation, having been unused for a long time.

Maybe something where the player has have to do some tasks, solve some switch puzzle, connecting cables which were broken due to the crash, ... before gaining access to power on the spaceship, so they can unlock the high technology things.


^ You can drag&drop the image on the URL bar to see a bigger size.
If there would be an ocean, the extra underwater thing at the mushroom cave would probably not be needed, but I dunno if there'll be an ocean?

There could still be a swamp in between the forest and spaceship thing... Or after the spaceship. Or at the left of the mountain. With skeleton pathways.

Also, this was drawn from memory based off Bifrost's map, I'm not trying to do it 'better' or change stuff without permission, my memory just made me draw it this way. These are just very quick sketches with "general" ideas for the world map, I'm not fleshing out specific parts. Never trying to be unrespectful in any way, just so you know. ;)
(I don't post in forums very often.)


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
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Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/2/2017

I'm not quite sure where all of this would fit on the map; especially the last drawing seems a bit difficult to place.

I love the idea of geysers and bioluminescent mushroom caves. And the crashed ufo or ufo parts. I'm not sure where I stand on the castle, though. It somehow feels a bit out of place.

 
Bifrost

Bifrost



  3/2/2017

@Geat Masta: You talked about swinging branches earlier. Would you prefer to have the trees in the background made without the softer branches and leaves on?
 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/2/2017  1

The castle was actually meant to be the underground mountain town city thing you drew. I just wanted to draw it quickly since you were already defining that area already. Same for the treehouse things.

The map is meant to reflect the whole world, the end should scroll over back to the beginning.


(also, I typed the wrong name in my previous post. Fixed it. xD)


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
Pilla
Fuzzy Dragonhat

Pilla


 visit Pilla's website: Pilla's DS Agents
  3/2/2017  1



I added some captioning and the area for the geysers. :P


Visit my Creatures blog/website - Pilla's DS Agents
Join us on Discord - Caos Coding Cave
Visit/contribute to the Creatures Wiki

 
 
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