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Need testers, TWB Conversion Project   1 | 2 | 3
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo
United Kingdom  

 visit Doringo's website: My Blog
  5/6/2016

I've been raising TWBs as of late and I've noticed that they carry around creature eggs too much, I find it difficult to move eggs because the norns will grab them and hold them all the time.


 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  5/6/2016

That is very odd, mine never showed any strong compulsions to pick up eggs. Is anyone else getting this issue?

I'm working on an advanced version that will have some readjustments to instincts to make them less set in their ways.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo
United Kingdom  

 visit Doringo's website: My Blog
  5/6/2016

I got rid of all the older norns and hatched all the eggs and after a while I don't see many holding eggs, it's very likely to be learned/addictive and may be situational, but while the older norns were still around they were holding eggs for hours on end.

EDIT: Some of the newer norns are getting overly attached to eggs now, like their ancestors.



 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  5/7/2016

Are these Abyss Dragons? They sometimes get weird about eggs, even in the current uploaded version, though more so in the v2.1s I've been working on. They like to grab prey, and that often generalizes to enjoying carrying stuff around in general, which never bothered me because, well, avariciousness, possessiveness, and hoarding are dragons traits after all. :p In the v2.1s I've got it so they tend to make discrete piles of eggs nearby the group rather than scattering them willy-nilly around the ship, but they do still handle them a lot. And the older version lacks those fine tunings so they just get weird sometimes.

It's possible to take eggs and other stuff away from them, tho', FWIW. It can be a challenge, but it's usually not that difficult, especially if it's a well grown egg.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo
United Kingdom  

 visit Doringo's website: My Blog
  5/7/2016

Lurhstaap wrote:
Are these Abyss Dragons?



I've never used Abyss dragons before, I'm just using TWB DS and C3 norns.



 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  5/9/2016

Hmmm. Do they have any instincts along similar lines that encourage them to get things? That may cause a similar issue.

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  5/9/2016

They have a very weak instinct to get eggs if bored triggering at adolescence but all other boredom instincts should immediately override it if there's anything interesting around. it's just there to make them pick up eggs laid in bad places and take them back to the incubator.

The stimulus boredom reduction was untouched but maybe it's still a little too rewarding for them so i'll reduce it.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  7/5/2018

I'm going to be doing some revisions of these genomes to fix a few bugs, bring them better in line with eventual TCBs and generally make them work better.

I've had a brain edit on the table for a while, which if I can get working will definitely be included into a full re-release.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  7/13/2018

I'm looking for some feedback based upon the test Creatures I've posted up for download. Would people be interested in me remaking the entire immune system to be more realistic and with longer lasting immunity?

Whatever I end up doing, I want to make a significant push forward with the next iteration of these genomes.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  7/14/2018

what sort of testing do you want done on them?
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  7/21/2018

So I thought it was about time to make a full update on the fixes and changes on this genome base. Let's start with the minor stuff:

- Raised liver glycogen capacity to threshold .2, allowing more glucose to be stored
- Changed receptor: Raised hunger for fat emittance to threshold .251so Creatures will feel hungry before starting to freeze
- Fixed a stress system gene that was incorrectly set to now emit at youth
- Thermoregulation re-balancing, all major genes in this system are set to not cut, dupe or mutate
- All lift navigation stimuli set to not cut, dupe or mutate
- Home smell stimuli changed to function at birth
- Minor instinct tweaks
- Some blue and green pigment genes set to male and female, allowing for more colour dymorphism between the sexes
- Reduced boredom reduction from got egg stimulus to -.048
- Dancing gait changed to trigger on Sex Drive rather than Arousal Potential
- Updrive produced while underwater, but drowing panic gene remains intact

And maybe more small things that I've forgotten to note down. Now, onto the big stuff; 4 new chemical types and 13 new chemicals total!
To start off - hemoglobin (or you can just call it blood) comes in oxygenated (221) and deoxygenated (220) forms, allowing Creatures to store oxygen and last longer underwater without drowning! Creatures can now also bleed out from their wounds, causing pain, loss of blood and slower healing. To compensate for this, platelets (215) in the blood act quickly to seal up wounds and stem bleeding - this is very effective against smaller injuries but doesn't work as well with larger and more prolonged beatings!

Next would be an entire revamp of the immune system with two new immune cells - phagocytes (216) and B cells (224). Phagocytes take up the role of removing antigens from the body along with producing the usual symptoms of an immune response, while B cells take up the role of producing antibodies. Upon infection, inactive B cells will start to divide and differentiate into plasma cells, each specialized to produce the antibody counter to that antigen's type (225-232). After an infection is over, these specialized cells stick around and continue to produce antibodies, keeping the Creature's immunity high enough to resist re-infection for a good while after.

Both immune cell types require vitamin C in order to stay replenished and fully functioning, so as an additional change Creatures will now also gain trace amounts of vitamin C from all fruit consumed.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Soloontherocks

Soloontherocks
United States  


  7/21/2018

Fumbling my way through (been a long time since I hatched any TWBs) but as a note, the new pair are an absolute riot in the Aquatic Terrarium. They're actually preferring to get their food from underwater instead of from land sources. They're putting the poor Bondis to shame. And they seem so far to be pretty smart about when they need to get out of the water (although they can hold their breath for a *shockingly* long time, to the point of repeatedly sleeping underwater). I wouldn't even consider them land norns who can spend time underwater, they're pretty much semi-aquatic.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  7/21/2018

Thanks for the feedback, I'd taken my cues on how much oxygen they could store from the original immune Norns, but did notice that they can hold their breaths for an incredibly long time! I'll get to adjusting that to be somewhat more reasonable (though will leave the long breath holding in the Bondi version!)

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Soloontherocks

Soloontherocks
United States  


  7/21/2018

For some reason they both perpetually have trace amounts of antigen 7 for me. Too small for the hoverdoc to detect, but showing up on the various 3rd part chem graphing agents. I've removed it by caos, I've injected new copies of their genome, it always shows up again after a moment or two. It seems to be hanging around 0.038 or so. I have a gen1 TWB bondi and TWB bengal in the same room, and they don't show any sign of it.

And re: the holding breath, yeah, I kind of love them for it because it's hilarious, but for non-bondis it might be somewhat high.

EDIT: They do seem to get themselves back out of the water before they're in danger very well, though. Better than my Bondi TWB control norn.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  7/21/2018

Soloontherocks wrote:
For some reason they both perpetually have trace amounts of antigen 7 for me. Too small for the hoverdoc to detect, but showing up on the various 3rd part chem graphing agents.



Found the culprit, one of the immune reactions was set to create antigen 7 rather than antibody 7. No idea why a small amount gets made even when the Creature hasn't been exposed to the antigen (though my best guess would involve organ initial clockrates), but it's usually too minor to really cause any problems. In this case though, useful for diagnosing something that could have ended up to be a real problem!


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  7/21/2018

I'm trying to raise them in an elevined Aquatalis Caverna to make use of their breath-holding skills

let's see how this goes

if you made a swimming carnivorous version they'd be like seals

 
Soloontherocks

Soloontherocks
United States  


  7/21/2018

It is interesting watching them surface for air before "diving" again. I just set a new world of them up in the Devil's Reef metaroom and I'm thinking about keeping the only food in the room underwater.

EDIT: ooooor they could catch the seagulls out of midair and eat them whole, I guess.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  7/21/2018

So i'm seeing something weird happening here and i'm not sure what's causing it. When the Norns are kept warm while underwater, they can somehow still breath down there...
The dark blue line is Air and it's still going up.
And I haven't made any changes to the gene responsible for inhaling air either.
My genome vs the CFE genome.

Edit: I tested in another area and didn't see the same results, it might be something to do with a specific spot in the Marine Terrarium.
Huh... now I just feel silly... and quite confused.

In other news I slashed their oxygen retantion to a quarter of what it was before, this should hopefully be a bit more reasonable!


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  9/8/2018

So a small update. I've been wracking my brain trying to get these Creatures to behave better, clump less but also not spread out and die. I think i'm making progress with that, but as of right now I have two definite changes that will be included:
- A small brain edit to make Creatures more likely to eat when overheating (with a complimenting agent to dispense refreshing water potions coded by Doringo)
- The non-functioning neuroemitters have been replaced with regular emitters, so now Norns will produce fear and adrenaline upon seeing Grendels like they should have been doing to start with!


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  9/19/2018

Okay, these have been going through a lot of iterations but I really want to get them finalized so need more opinions.
Can anyone help me out and test these two Norns:
Eginbert
Wazuka
Any comments on function or behavior, good or bad, will be helpful.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
savannahs11

savannahs11
United States  


  9/20/2018

I like these! I raised the starter pair by hand, but now, I'm doing a Wolfling Run with their descendants. They wander enough to be interesting to watch, but they don't scatter and die out like regular CFFs.

EDIT: After leaving them going without a population limit overnight and coming back to fifty-something Norns, I can confirm that they still need one. Oh, well. Standard Norns would have crashed the game if I did that.


sleep is for the weak and i am weak
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  9/20/2018

Yeah, in nature populations are limited by resource scarcity and predation, so I don't think Norns can really be controlled in that way through genetics alone.

But thank you for the feedback!


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  10/1/2018

Dragoler wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, I'd taken my cues on how much oxygen they could store from the original immune Norns, but did notice that they can hold their breaths for an incredibly long time! I'll get to adjusting that to be somewhat more reasonable (though will leave the long breath holding in the Bondi version!)



Part of that extra breath-holding ability is probably due to the CFF fix of the incomplete (and broken) lactate-pyruvite cycle that were in the original C3 genomes. Lactic acid normally is supposed to act as an emergency surplus store of low-oxygen energy transfer for cells. (It's what allows the 'second wind' in anaerobic exercises like running). When these creatures are oxygen-deprived, surplus pyruvite turns into lactic acid, which effectively lets them use their remaining mitochondrial energy more slowly, but also much less efficiently, without needing oxygen. Effectively it gives them a little more time before asphyxiating compared to the normal genomes.

PS: EDIT: This advantage is probably multiplied if you are lowering their oxygen requirements, so just dial down whatever other tweaks that are doing that and you should be good (modifying and balancing the lactate-pyruvite cycle itself is very delicate, it took a lot of tests, and a lot of unfortunate test subjects to get it right, especially since levels of the chemicals involved also have to do with the drive reactions that let them detect when they are asphyxiating).


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/1/2018

They still experience fear when lactate builds up in their systems, which actually happens before all oxygen has fully left their bloodstreams. The absurdly long breath holding is something I've noticed before that fear started to manifest, but the CFF changes have helped a lot to identify Norns pushing their luck down there and to rescue them in time (if they don't drag themselves out in a panic first)

The Bondi ended up with a breath capacity of half the original, while every other breed gets half of their capacity in turn, but I am working on a genome that dives underwater and catches small critters using the full original capacity.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  10/1/2018

Yeah, the CFF changes that use pyruvite/lactate cycle to help temporarily replace the function of oxygen when it's low use the exact decay rates and reactions that were in the original genome but just not working right because the lactate chemical was broken (CFFs ignore lactate and use another chemical I called lactic acid for the same purpose in those reactions, which helps avoid harmful issues as much as possible when crossbreeding with other genomes that still use lactate... Either the whole new system gets inherited and works, the harmful effects of the broken lactate chemical are prevented, or worse comes to worst, you have a creature that is no better or worse off than the non-CFF parent).

But yeah, that makes sense that the longer breath holding is noticeable before the fear, since they start getting the extra anaerobic source of energy for cell respiration as soon as lactate starts being made in them, but they don't get the fear until it reaches high levels. That bit of extra time it gives (besides making their metabolism work more like a real animal's) was likely intended, so you could have a chance to save them, since many of the original genomes had a real propensity for drowning.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Kirel

Kirel



  10/15/2018

Any ETA when these will be released? Eagerly awaiting these genomes!
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/15/2018  1

They are being packaged for a CCSF release. On that note, if anyone is interested in making a breed conversion with the new TWB/TCB genomes please message me, as I would be interested in including them into the full breed pack. I'll provide base genomes and will wait a few days before sending the pack in with credits given.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  11/20/2018

Hello there! For some reason a lot of agents that analyze creature chemical levels aren't playing nice so I've been using the "SUPER INFORMATIVE" hoverdoc. I love my grendels, and of course couldn't help but try to play test the TCB jungle grendels (I assume that's the base genome). They tend to move around well, I haven't noticed them getting caught up in any loops, they breed alright (I appreciate the challenge), BUT my pop keeps dying out. When I check out the corpses with the hoverdoc, they do have pain and fear, no coldness or hotness so I think I've got them fairly dialed in for temp. No bacteria, no toxins, no high drives, etc. None of them make it past adult. I'm wondering if they aren't perhaps a bit fragile for how slap happy they tend to be? They tend to survive a couple bouts alright, as I'm sure was your intention, but repeated beatings kill them outright... as it probably should.

Ideas I Have:

A. Try to dial back how slap happy they are, either by making them spread out more or try to reduce how quickly their anger builds up OR increase how quickly slapping gets rid of anger to reduce the intensity of the fighting.

B. Make them more resilient to slapping, could possibly make it harder for norns to defend themselves, or perhaps make them faster to heal themselves making it possible to overwhelm them in a short period but increase their livability in a social setting... If "social setting" is even a thing you want them doing. Maybe they SHOULD only be getting together to make babies, but it would require some sort of tweaking as is.

Disclaimer: As they are, I love them, and of course I can try to dabble on my own if you'd prefer.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/20/2018

Hello Cerulean thanks for the feedback! Can I first confirm that you are using the most recently released version of the breed? They were designed to be pretty close to the vanilla genome in terms of behaviour, but TWB/TCB breeds have an additional genetic quirk which is especially prominent in Grendels; they are able to generate warmth through hitting (and any physical exercise really, but hitting tends to be the most noticeable). Because of this quirk Grendels may attempt to hit each other in order to stay warm.

I don't know if this is what's causing the hyper-aggression in your own Grendel population, but I set up a warm and sealed-off mettaroom in order to test it, and so far my two test Grendels have been quite peaceful with each other. Other factors involved could be crowding and the scent of Norns.

I'm not really keen on making them tougher as that would make it much harder for Norns to defend themselves, as you mentioned. The other suggestions i'm giving more thought.

Update: One is getting a bit slap-happy but there have been two born and no deaths yet.

Edit 2: After some thought, I think I may increase the rate at which aggressive breeds regenerate platelets.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  11/21/2018

I’m using the most recent upload via CCSF, and they’re in the meso with weather generator 2.0 plus a heat lamp in the lower meso set to 7, so overall top area is ~8, middle is ~6, and lower is ~7. The “cold” ones (1-2 bars on hoverdoc, so informative /s) tend to gravitate back towards the lower meso levels but don’t appear cold while down there, however there is a lot of slapping! When you say “warm” how warm exactly are you talking? I’m so glad I asked you about it first, if I had tried to mess with it I wouldn’t have had any idea what was what!
 

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