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Need testers, TWB Conversion Project   1 | 2 | 3
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/11/2015  1

It could be that the room is simply too large to heat up enough, I will have to check it.

Edit: Yup, looks like you can make individual rooms hot enough but when the heat disperses out the adjacent rooms don't get hot enough. The desert needs more emitters.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Yme

Yme



  11/11/2015

Do the environmental controlls in each terrarium not work? >I thought you could bump the heat up with that.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/11/2015

If they do work they have very VERY little effect.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Yme

Yme



  11/13/2015

Wonder why they're even there, then. Just another unfinished idea?
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/13/2015

Seems to be, judging by how broken the ecology in the terrariums are (the trout always dying out in the forest, dragonflys dying out in the jungle, everything falling through the lift in the desert and the man'o wars never hatching in the aquarium, for example.)

Much of the game stinks of rushed, not just the genomes.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  11/20/2015

I play tested your most recent pack release, and they seem to be functioning well. I added in the toy agent, and they path fairly reliably. I've gotten a few who were stuck pacing around something or other in the hub for a bit looking for starch (which was on the other side of the door in the meso), but when the drive got strong enough they figured it out. I've had that happen a couple of times for creatures in the incubator not walking over to the telepathic dispenser, but I think this is more a result of general CA screwiness then the genome. They are feeding themselves much better then the CFE chameleon ettins that wandered over to the meso.

They are also breeding well. I prefer slower breeders myself, but I see a lot of back and forth on that score and it's easy enough to change on my own, just stating my personal preference to chime in rather then complain. They find each other well, as in path over to each other a lot better then most creatures to breed. They rarely get distracted, and seem to have an efficient, if erm, one track mind. As soon as the females are fertile again, even if they're on the other side of Capillata, they find their way to each other and are pregnant pretty much back to back. It's a good thing that they are navigating so well, even if I'm getting swamped by babies.

No problems so far with hot and cold. I tend to keep mine quite happy, and I have a heater set up in the hub for them, as that seems to always be a gathering point, resources or no. 5 or so is more then sufficient heat, and the meso area seems perfectly suited to their metabolic rate. No travelers as of yet, besides the interloping ettins. Despite this, I find them relatively unclumped, as each one paths over to a specific resource away from the others regularly instead of silliness like pacing back and forth complaining in front of a unproductive telepathic dispenser (why did they like it so much before? it's like it hypnotized them, that and the learning machine).

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/20/2015

Thank you for the feedback, it is good to hear they are functioning well for you. I tried to change some stimuli and instincts that made them obsess over silly things, but I haven't touched the brain which is pure CFF.

The breeding thing is interesting, when creatures are aware of their cycles and kisspop at the right time they can breed like rabbits regardless of how fertile they are... the window for TWBs is slightly wider than the window for CFFs (46 libido lowerer half-life compared to the CFF 50... the standard is 14). I have had CFFs that overpopulate my ship, but I have also had CFFs that go extinct because they just weren't interested in each other... the bigger window is there just to make it easier for you to catch those fertile times if the creatures aren't interested themselves.

The other alternative would be to slow down their cycles completely... fewer cycles per lifetime would mean fewer babys, but that isn't something I am going to explore in this genome.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  11/21/2015

And I wouldn't ask you to, it's just fine the way it is. I can download the population panel or tweak the libido lowerer without much fuss. Not to mention, as a slight update for this run, they did end up dying out on their own after two days with the population panel set to 2 offspring per norn. That's extenuating circumstances, but I'm sure there'd still be the 100 there if I'd slapped those restrictions on base game norns.

Thanks for making these guys, they've been a lot of fun to play with.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/10/2015

With the base genomes officially out now, if anyone wants to use them for their own breeds or conversions go right ahead, and tell me so I can add your breed to the list! :)

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  12/16/2015

So, I downloaded the genes for the TWBs and have been playing with them for about two days. I've noticed some issues I figured I'd bring to your attention.

1. I'm getting a lot of unexplained deaths. The deceased are often somewhere warm enough with no drives particularly high and no bacteria or anything (I turn bacteria off in my worlds). Unfortunately I couldn't check them with the x-ray once they were dead, so I don't know if it was the following issue that killed them or something else.

2. Heart failure seems to be a big thing with these guys. I've had to export a lot of them as their heart health is in the red by the time they're adolescents.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/16/2015

What diet have you been feeding them? High fat diets are bad for their hearts.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  12/16/2015

That might explain it. There's carrots and tubers all over the place in my world. They eat what they want for the most part, there's plenty of all types of food in the world.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/16/2015

Encourage them to consume fruit over seeds and make sure they stay active. It will drain their glycogen stores and make them hungry faster, but so long as they keep eating fruits they will burn off any excess adipose tissue and gain muscle tissue to boot!

Seeds are sort of like sweets, high energy, but not good to eat all the time :P


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  12/17/2015

Ahh, I see, I'll try and get them a little less lazy and spread more fruit.
 
Arnout

Arnout
Netherlands  


  12/17/2015  1

I've been playing a lot with these recently, and they function impressively well. Though I've come across a problem that causes some deaths in my populations.

It seems that some of them just won't warm up again after getting cold. They'll just lie down, get tired and make death noises. I've tried putting them in warm places, feeding them energy rich food and I let them chase after toys to keep them moving. They also don't seem to get really hungry while their energy levels deplete slowly. Later on, the poor things just pass away.

Most of them were adult females (generation 1) that had at least one kid, or baby magma norn crossbreeds.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/17/2015  2

Due to the balance changes I made to make their cold drives appear more threatening to them (and more dangerous to the hand too), creatures with extremely low fat stores can become hypothermic and unable to recover without special medical treatment (hotness injections). In this state most of their metabolism has shut down and they will be unable to gain energy from eating.

They should become hungry for fat before they reach that point, though the threshold might be set a little too low, I will look into it. It is unfortunate, but it isn't unheard of in humans (especially in the elderly).

Edit: I tested a Norn who was just at the point of emitting fat hunger, he was able to recover from hypothermia by himself but he needed to be near his home.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Arnout

Arnout
Netherlands  


  12/17/2015

What about Norns who do not feel at home anywhere? E.g. Bondis and Treehuggers.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/17/2015

Somewhere hot should work too, it's also always good to have some chilli peppers on hand. :P

Treehuggers are interesting, I noticed they have a tendency to die from obesity, I think it's because they don't have any lift and door navigation instincts so they, ironically, become sedentary shut-ins. It's a breed quirk that they are more fragile, even with a couple of adjustments in there to help them cope easier.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Arnout

Arnout
Netherlands  


  12/18/2015

Wow, I didn't even know the chilli peppers actually warmed up Creatures. :$
One of my Norns suddenly munched down about 7 of them, as well as some Justanuts. She's all healthy now. x)

 
Dark

Dark



  12/18/2015

Ran a little experiment where I filled the biodome with only fruit to see if heart disease was also behind the 'mysterious deaths'. It does not appear to be the case as they've just hit adolescence and two have died upon reaching it.

X-ray was fine, no bacteria in the world, and no high drives. I can't figure out what's killing these guys.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/18/2015

That is pretty strange, did you make sure to also monitor chemical 110?

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  12/18/2015

No, which chemical is that? I'd be able to track it with the hoverdoc?
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/18/2015

You can type in the chemicals you want to monitor into the xray on the right hand side. Chemical 110 is nameless, it's just 110.

The trouble is the heart disease gene is the only silent killer in the TWB genome I can think of.
If a creature has a high fear drive on death it probably asphyxiated (or was murdered)
If a creature has a high hotness drive on death it probably overheated
If a creature has a high coldness drive on death it probably become hypothermic
If a creature has high hunger drives on death it probably starved
and all toxins leave some trace you can detect, unless they were hit by absolutely minute concentrations of ATP-decoupler, which could probably do it...

Chemical 110 is linked directly to the clock-rate of the heart/mitochondria, so if they suffered some kind of metabolic death, you might notice a change in it.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  12/18/2015

Idk, I don't see any worrisome chemicals spiking on the x-ray for anyone.

Edit: Maybe repeat the experiment yourself and see if you find anything I'm missing?

 
Dark

Dark



  12/27/2015

After playing with the default norns and your TWBs, I noticed that while the default norns become cold easily in the norn terrarium while this doesn't seem to be the case with the TWBs. Just out of curiosity is this something you made an edit to?
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  12/27/2015

Creatures lose heat while they urinate which is where the majority of the coldness in normal Norns comes from, I reduced the coldness they gained from this reaction. I also reduced the chemical half-life of coldness for balance reasons.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  12/27/2015

Awesome. I forgot how annoying it was to have norns that shivered no matter where you put them.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  1/2/2016

I tried your experiment: Biodome, no bacteria and only fruit, I didn't see any mysterious deaths. Creatures became fat starved and didn't function all that well, and a couple got infected with heavy metals from... somewhere, but otherwise any deaths were either down to starvation (fat hunger driving creatures mad so they stop eating the fruit) or injury (the Hardman in the group got a bit slap happy...).

Whatever the problem was, I doubt it was due to my genomes.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  1/3/2016

Weird, it must be my game then.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  1/4/2016

I could do with some help from someone who understands the brain. I am trying to find where/how proximity data is stored, that is, when a creature knows something is near it but not within it's immediate attention, then create an isolated lobe so it isn't stimulated by REM sleep.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/3/2016

For some reason, I'm having some real problems with overheating in the current stage of Abyss development and I wonder if you can give me a hand with this? The problem began when I noticed that they were suffering from cold a lot. So I tried some very small tweaks to various aspects of their biology, but it turns out your TWB work is more masterly than I realized - you must have it very carefully balanced because even the slightest changes wreaked total havoc. I have just not been able to find a balance between them either being way too cold or just dying of either epic obesity or massive overheating at a young age. Now and then I've -seemed- to make progress, but it was so precarious that it only worked in one or two metarooms, which isn't good enough for me.

Is there much I can do to make them more cold resistant or should I just recommend people download the Heater agent? >.>

EDIT: I have no idea if this is related or not but I just discovered that two of the Detect Heat genes have the same ID number and it's making the Genetics Kit kind of wig out. Is that purposeful? Is there anything I can do to change it?


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  4/3/2016

Yeah.. you don't wanna know how many unfortunate test creatures I had to go through to get this system balanced right lol.

I recommend you reduce drive sensitivity to cold (or disabled that gene entirely, similar to how Ettins don't have a hotness drive) and move their threshold slider on the adipose tissue receptor linked to the 'hunger for fat' emitter up. That way it starts emitting at higher concentrations, then they will always keep themselves topped up. I would not mess with the balance of their other thermoregulation functions.

Having said that, make sure that their starch source doesn't also grant them fat so they don't accidentally go overboard.

Lurhstaap wrote:

EDIT: I have no idea if this is related or not but I just discovered that two of the Detect Heat genes have the same ID number and it's making the Genetics Kit kind of wig out. Is that purposeful? Is there anything I can do to change it?


I ran out of receptors (you only get a limited number of IDs). I have since stripped many of them out but these two worked so I didn't want to mess with them. In what way are they causing problems, other than captions?


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/3/2016

Ooh. Hmm. Right now they're running on that all-nutrients-from-animals double reaction you suggested. But then again I did that because I couldn't figure out why they were dying so much before - they might be OK going back to a more typical nutrition system at this point in development. I'll have to experiment with that, thank you. Right now I've managed to get them to have pretty balanced adipose and muscle growth through life, but coldness remains a problem. I tried making fat work better as an insulator but then I got overheating. It's really very delicate, but that's rather realistic anyway, now I think about it. XD

And nothing too serious, just the occasional 'shared ID number' error message, and Sanity Check whines at me about it, but that's all. Just thought I'd mention it in case it needed fixing. If it's no big deal I'll ignore it.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  4/3/2016

Just add heaters and the heat in water fix I guess?
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/3/2016

Already using heat in water. I'd prefer to fix this genetically if possible rather than asking people to download an agent in addition to the breed since I can't package the agent with the breed. Although it turns out I also need to worry about heat too since apparently Artemisia Sea is way hotter than the other rooms I've been using. x.x

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 

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