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 Caves Dweller Rascii   Administrator  |
As many of you probably already know, there are a handful of people who claim that the moderation team here occasionally abuses it's powers. While I trust everyone on the team and only allowed them to join the team because they are trustworthy people, I wanted to see what the overall site/community feel about the staff team here at Creatures Caves. Please be sure to vote in the new poll to express your opinion anonymously, and if you feel comfortable discussing it openly then please post a more verbose opinion as a reply to this thread. Along with your response, please mention whether or not you would feel more comfortable if there was a log kept of all moderator activity (post edits and deletes) so that if there was an accusation of abuse of powers, we would have proof of whether such action took place or not. I want to bring this discussion out in the open because I feel that it's important that everyone on this website feel comfortable, have their opinion heard and overall enjoy using the website.  - Rascii |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
Well, not that anonymous, really. You can either stay all anonymous, or you can explain your choice in detail with a comment. Since I am known as kinda annoying anyways, I decide for latter. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 GimmeCat |
Discussion invites argument, and I would rather the moderator actions remain private to anyone not directly involved. Internal logging should be sufficient to ensure the integrity of the team, unless of course there's something majorly and fundamentally wrong with the core staff. |
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Caves Dweller Rascii Administrator |
What I'm hoping to discuss here is how people view the moderation team, not discuss particular cases, GimmeCat. We have a moderators-only forum where specific cases are discussed amongst ourselves. Thanks for the feedback. - Rascii |
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Peppery One Papriko |
Rascii, I think you should have a close look to your PM folder. Again, I can not bring forward anything in person (as I simply never had a look into the mod forum) but I heard some interesting stories from other people they might be afraid of posting in public. If there is anything real about them, I would be VERY curious in your position. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
Personally, I think it should be required that all moderators message a user whenever they need to intervene, for example, editing a comment. It should also be logged internally so other staff members are aware and no moderator abuses their powers. |
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 KittyTikara |
I know I'm a mod, but I feel like I have to chime in. I feel like the staff generally does a good job. There are a few problems though, and communication might be one of the bigger ones? A mod portal, or some place that logs what moderators do, would be helpful. I hope all it ever logs is "fixed someones broken link" or "banned a spam bot," but it might be useful in some situations. Even places like Reddit have one, and Reddit itself has quite a few other problems. Also, maybe we should start telling people when, and maybe why, a staff member change happens? It will help inform people when a change happens. I know if I was a regular member, I would want to know why the staff list changed. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog |
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 xan |
I definitely think there should be a log of all mod activity, as well as a site policy to *always* notify users when their posts have been altered or removed. I've been often troubled it wasn't that way from the start. It /is/ a dual edged sword, as it can backfire and draw things out, but I think the pros outweigh the cons, especially at this point, as it's pretty plain to me that at least some people are just plain bristly about the seeming lack of good faith toward site users, and I can't fault them for that. I've seen it justified by mentioning that CCaves has a number of minors in its userbase ... but at its extremes, that isn't a good way to treat minors, or give them an impression of, either. When I was in staff, and even today, I observed way too much fear of the moderation team. Compulsory logging isn't not even necessarily a matter of preventing abuse so much as creating accountability-- with it no actions can go 'under the radar', and any moderation action taken can be contested and referred back to (allowing newer mods to use previous actions as precedent, among other things). A culture thing, in less words. As it is, one hand can move without the other even knowing, as I know far too well, and that is rarely a good way to moderate anything. I voted 'unsure' as I've been out of the loop too long to be certain of much of anything. I just know what I've seen of attitudes toward CCaves recently and in the past. The reputation (that it's a strict, clique-ish forum) hasn't seemed to change and that troubles me. TY for bringing this in the open, it's been extremely frustrating to watch being spoken of only vaguely from afar. |
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Peppery One Papriko |
A notification about a staff change would be nice, but again, a people change would already help. I mentioned it before, but where did e.g. Kezune and cptmashek vanish to? They were great people and now they are gone "just because". What happened in the club house that scared them away? I miss em... Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Wee Scrivener Trell |
Perhaps a policy to alert people when their post has been altered/removed would help..? Trell "Holy crap in a casket!" |
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xan |
I forgot to mention it in my first post, but-- if one and only one mechanical change is implemented-- Posts should *never* be deleted from the database, just hidden to non-mods. If they're deleted from the database (incidentally insulating them from future review, like I already described the problem of in my first post) it could /theoretically/ be a legal liability. If it already works this way, then nevermind. |
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GimmeCat |
In case it was misunderstood, I wasn't referring to this thread in my post. I was just giving my opinion. I think that moderator logs should exist, but shouldn't be public to anyone not involved in the action, because it gives people something to focus negatively on and pick fights over. I've seen it happen elsewhere. Too much transparency can just invite trouble, but if the team doesn't have a decent 'good faith' system about how they manage the community, it can be a detriment keeping their actions hidden from users. It's a balancing act.I haven't been here very long, but so far I've had no reason to mistrust the team's judgement. I haven't even noticed any mod actions happening tbh, just occasional post edits to fix urls. |
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 Malkin Manager |
I've been concerned for some time about the "Respect Mods" rule, because I think that when things get heated, it's easy to point to that rule to justify actions. Respect Mods - Do not question the judgment of a moderator in public forums. If you do truthfully feel that one has done something wrong, contact an administrator by private message or email. I repeat - Do not discuss it in the forums! I would like to see it rewritten to emphasise mutual respect. As for the administrator log - it would be interesting. It could contribute to a more accountable culture, which could be a positive or a negative. Having an explicit log would make differences in moderation style clearer. My TCR Norns |
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Peppery One Papriko |
See? That is one of the issues. That "respect mods" rule can be interpreted in too many ways. Let's say a moderator bans someone simply because IDK, they used to have a personal relationship and they broke up. The person gets banned simply for knowing the moderator in question. Nobody would be allowed to ask about their (by definition questionable) decision at all, because it would AUTOMATICALLY "question the judgment of a moderator". You are not even allowed to ask WHY some action took place. It happened because "I said so, SHUT UP OR GET BANNED FOR RULE VIOLATION!". That is just not the way a community can work. EDIT: Just taking a screeny for sure. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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xan |
I've always been a bit skeptical of that rule as well, as the admins (sorry, Rascii) simply aren't around as often (or as visible, or as familiar) as the mod staff. 'Always escalate directly to the top' isn't a practical thing. Especially when there's never a notification in the first place, there's not necessarily any attempt to communicate the reason for it, so you can't know if you feel the judgment was wrong or not. You might not know anything other than 'oh, my post was deleted' assuming you even notice at all. With modification you can extrapolate from what was changed, but that's all it is, extrapolation. Especially since there's no 'revision log' as I understand. Better logging would facilitate better communication between mods and require less decisions-made-by-a-single-mod which is stressful no matter who's doing it. I definitely agree that having the logs public isn't a good idea, though. |
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Malkin Manager |
I think that it would be good for a page that lists all the moderation team's levels and members to be visible to all logged-in users of Creatures Caves, in case it would be better to use a PM rather than the contact form. My TCR Norns |
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GimmeCat |
Papriko wrote: If the team includes people who would act in such an unprofessional manner, then I think the problems run far deeper than simply the wording of the rules. That's a systemic problem that can only be fixed by better vetting of team members. |
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Caves Dweller Rascii Administrator |
Papriko, we already have a gag and ban log and it is not allowed to simply gag or ban someone who is not breaking any rules. Any staff member who did that would lose their status. The respect mods rule stemmed from trolls who would just flagrantly disregard the rules and what mods said to them. It isn't meant to mean that mods can do whatever they want, it is just there to set up an appropriate outlet for filing a complaint about a mod. As GimmeCat pointed out, discussing it in the forums just leads to more issues so contacting a higher level user directly makes the most sense. - Rascii |
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 Devil COBbler GirlySatan |
I definitely agree that people discussing mod decisions in the forum is too much of a problem and I understand why that rule was in place. I don't think it would really be interpreted incorrectly as long as people trust the mod decisions; I think maybe as long as changes are verified with other staff, people would be more trusting. The problem I am seeing is that people are questioning moderators decisions as if they are doing anything they want. As if they are picking on people for no reason, which I don't understand where it comes from. I think as long as there are logs, probably private to the members but visible to the staff, can be helpful. I mean people can make mistakes and it can be helpful to use it to maintain accuracy, as well as responsibility. and as always discuss with the original poster what is wrong. if they feel they cant talk to the person who edited the post, a list could be helpful so they can choose a moderator they feel comfortable with. Every one has some good ideas. I think we can build on it to try and foster more trust between the members and staff. Devilishly Yours, GirlySatan ![[devil]](/images/smilies/devil.gif "[devil]") |
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 Dienes |
Have you thought about doing something like LimeSurvey or Survey Monkey for more specific feedback? Like: 1. What is one way moderation has improved your experience? 2. What is one way moderation can improve? |
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Caves Dweller Rascii Administrator |
So I think the following changes will be implemented based on the feedback I'm receiving: - Whenever a post is edited or deleted, a private message will be sent to the original user notifying them, along with the reason for the change. - An edit/delete log will be available to the moderation team which cannot be changed by anyone, and will be used to research any issues that may arise. - The 'respect mods' rule will be revised to emphasize mutual respect but still discourage discussing mod decisions openly in the forum. Thanks again for the feedback everyone! I hope that everyone found this helpful and feel free to continue providing any feedback that hasn't already been discussed. I'll make announcements as the changes are implemented since they will require a bit of coding and time on my part. - Rascii |
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 tinklybintly |
Greetings, I've been a user on creaturescaves for a while now on a different account. But I've had a problem with the way that Laura views and moderates this forum for a long time. She was assumptive and rude when me and others posted content, asked questions, talked in chat, etc. She would directly attack me in the CC chat, calling me out for things that weren't even against the rules. I became more and more wary about what I did on the site when she was about, but it wasn't enough. One day in CC chat, me and a friend were talking, when an anonymous troll entered the chat, and started posting inflamatory messages regarding Laura. When he was banned, Laura started accusing me of being said troll. I denied this, and told her to actually check the logs so she would see a different IP and probably a different location that the troll was in, but she ignored this, getting more and more ridiculous, accusing me of past attacks on the site, and then finally IP and Account banning me permenantly, with the message: "calling me a c*nt, repeatedly". I was upset that my account was banned for literally NO reason, and I think that it was a horrendous abuse of Laura's powers. |
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GimmeCat |
Those are very serious accusations. Some proof would be helpful. Words vs. words is little more than flamewar-bait. |
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 Tartan Badger Hellfrozeover |
It's really not hard to change your IP....even so, it's doubtful that Laura would behave that way. I'm sure the others who frequent chat could back that up. DUNDUNDUUUUUN! |
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Peppery One Papriko |
Hmpf, seeing what is going on here lately, I have to admit that I was almost certainly fed with incorrect information. I am sorry that I have been so negative. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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Devil COBbler GirlySatan |
I was in that chat session, and I remember the IP matched and that is why you were banned. She was not abusing her powers as two other mods were there and agreed. Devilishly Yours, GirlySatan |
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Peppery One Papriko |
Just out of curiosity, what was that "former nick" of yours, tinklybintly? Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Deskman |
I can also vouch for Laura that she handled correctly, you trolled, got kicked for it and started talking abusively under a different name |
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Dienes |
I really don't think a public airing of grievances is going to be useful. Set up a survey. Thread like this is just going to start a war with a lot of one-sided stories and accusations. |
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tinklybintly |
Papriko wrote: I'm afraid I would rather not say. I created this account purely to post my thoughts on this thread. |
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Tartan Badger Hellfrozeover |
I'm sure that the mods can figure that one out DUNDUNDUUUUUN! |
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Peppery One Papriko |
tinklybintly wrote: Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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tinklybintly |
Papriko wrote: tinklybintly wrote: Even though the post I put on this thread is the only thing on my account. Use your head... |
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Peppery One Papriko |
I did, thanks. The first and to that point only so far was ranting about how you totally are an old user who returned and how some people here suck. When asked what "old user" you suddenly become all defensive and don't wanna tell, which, to me, sounds like you are making this whole thing up on the fly. Remember, I said "troll", not "spammer". Trolling does not need many posts. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
Papriko, tinklybintly appears to be telling the truth about being an old user. A user has in fact been banned for the aforementioned reasons. Upon reviewing the evidence, I don't believe his ban to have been unwarranted - meaning these accusations against Laura are probably untrue. Regardless, Laura is no longer a moderator here. tinklybinkly, if you still have grievances over your issue with Laura, please take it somewhere else. |
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Caves Dweller Rascii Administrator |
Locking this thread for now since it's gotten quite off topic. If anyone else has any views on the moderation team that they'd like to share, please send me a PM. - Rascii |
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 replies cannot be added because this thread has been locked. | ||||
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