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Help Forum Breeds with Pigment Genes not =128    Narol      3/16/2016 Hello everyone, I'm looking for existing breeds whose default pigment genes are not all set to 128 like for all official breeds and who don't change color by lifestage like some unnofficial colored breeds do. Does someone knew some and where I can find them, please ? Edit: I forgot to precise, I meant C3DS breeds btw.   Lurhstaap     3/16/2016 Anything with Colortrue in the name or description should fit what you're looking for. But it's not hard to edit colors, anyway. If you can see they're at 128 you can edit them to be something else. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   Code Monkey evolnemesis   3/16/2016 Colortrue are a little more than that... Colortrue are set up so their color genes can't mutate and they have them more split up around their genome so they are more likely to blend together each parents colors when breeding (a colortrue breed typically comes with a few starter colors to play with). But yeah they are ideal I think, since they won't ever mutate to change colors at lifestages, like any other norn can. They're not particularly genetically compatible with non-colortrue creatures though. Evo Norns, Dark Banshee Grendels, and Alien Norns are some breeds I made with their colors set to nonstandard values.. None of them change color by lifestage, but they are not colortrue, so their colors CAN mutate, meaning mutant offspring might eventually change colors in lifestages... This even happens to the official norn breeds... Anything without colortrue genetics is susceptible to mutations that drop or add color genes or mutate colors for specific lifestages. All 3 of these breeds are CFF, so its recommended to breed them only with CFF or CFE types, but really, problems with mixing should be rare... They are designed to try and minimize genetic incompatibilty with other breeds. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan   Lurhstaap     3/16/2016 I know, but I figured the OP was mainly just looking for colorful Norns and wasn't necessarily concerned about later-gen mutations. :p I may have been wrong in that assumption, of course! Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   Narol   3/16/2016 Thanks Lurhstaap and Evolnemesis. Indeed the Colortrue won't fit, I want to breed them with classic breeds and then let them mutate naturally. I already have both Alien Norns and Evo Norns (and I am a great fans of both btw) but they won't fit too... The standard Alien Norns I got have 128 in all 5 pigment genes, while my Evo have 128 in the first 3 pigment genes then 138 in Pigment Rotation and 44 in Pigment Swap. It's my fault, my question wasn't enough precise : I'm looking for breeds with numbers different than 128 in Red/Green/Blue Pigment Genes (ie the first 3 gene numbers that you can see in the genetic information page). Well, I guess I will have to learn how to use the Genetic Kit or the EasyGMS tool to engineer them myself, maybe it's about time after decennies of playing C3 !!   Lurhstaap     3/16/2016 Well, in that case, you might try my Grendeltails - they're very colorful. They WILL probably change color as they grow, though, since Colortrues are pretty much the only ones that don't develop that issue sooner or later. If you want to make your own, you're in luck, since color edits are one of the easiest. Pretty much THE easiest, short of changing the appearance of the body parts. All you have to do is: - Open the Genetics Kit. - Pick the base genome you want to edit (in your case probably one of the original breed genomes) and then open it. - Go to the Gene Editor tab. Then click the Type sorter button at the top and scroll through the list until you find the Creature: Pigment genes. (You can mess with the Pigment Bleed if you like, but it's easier not to at first. I tried to post a link to a tutorial about pigment bleed but it wouldn't work. x.x Hopefully someone else has one that's still up or is at least archived.) - Then you edit the Pigment genes using a slider that goes from Muted to Bright. You just set the sliders to produce the color you want, keeping in mind that it mixes like light instead of like paint (high red + high green = yellow, for example). - Export the newly edited creature to your world. And that's it. You will now have a very colorful but otherwise normal Norn, or whatnot. That PARTICULAR creature will keep its color its whole life if you remembered to set all the pigment genes correctly. However, as you breed it, you will almost certainly encounter life stage related color changes due to mutations. Pretty much the only way to avoid that is to make more dramatic changes to the genome that may cause compatibility issues. A more skilled gengineer may be able to give you better advice on that point. (And even, sometimes, you get purely random ones - I've seen some Grendeltails change color twice before growing out of the baby stage!) Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   c1anddsaddict   3/16/2016 I believe it's possible to change the pigment genes so they can't be deleted or duplicated, but still allow them to mutate. One thing you could try is keep only three pigment genes (one for each color) and set them to the earliest lifestage. This would lower the likelihood of color mutations, but it would also lower the likelihood of header mutations that could cause your creatures to change color over their lifespan. It would be possible, though, so you might want to keep an eye on your population and manually export creatures that don't keep their color. There is a downside to this: creatures gengineered this way would not be genetically compatible with any other breed. It's not a difficult edit to make, but you would need to mess around with genes (or ask somebody else to, I suppose. I could probably do it). So, are you planning on disregarding rotation/swap? While they're a bit difficult to understand, they can create some really pretty effects, especially when combined with regular pigment genes. Anyway, if you don't want to deal with rotation/swap and want to go the route I mentioned, I would suggest deleting those genes entirely. EDIT: Alternatively, you could leave a single rotation/swap gene in, make it unable to mutate, delete or duplicate, and set both values to 128. DS village My TCR norns STAY AWAY FROM THE MOLDY, DISEASED CHICKEN NUGGET STASH!!!   Narol   3/16/2016 Thanks All ! Well, the idea is to allow for a maximal color diversity over the 5 color genes, including the rotation/swap ones.. I found that Sprite Norns have some color genes set to 0 and 255, so by breeding them with Evo Norns I may get some interesting results, I'll give it a try !   Lurhstaap     3/16/2016 If that's what you're going for then I'd recommend silencing (that is, checking the 'make carried' box) on all the pigment genes that go into effect after Embryo. That's a compromise move between what I suggested before and what c1anddsaddict suggested above. It would allow them to be more compatible with other breeds, since the genes still exist but are inactive, but the chance of life stage color change mutations would be higher than with addict's suggestion. Honestly, keeping color stable while still being able to breed with other breeds safely is more challenging in C3/DS than it was in C1 and probably C2 as well (though I know C2 less well). In short, sadly, you may need to compromise what you're hoping for a little. Colortrues, and any creatures with modifications to their genes that produce a result similar to Colortrues, are going to be difficult to safely breed or splice with anything that doesn't have the same edits, or at least the same number of genes (I think that's the issue? not sure, now I think about it). There'll be a lot of sliders, stillborns, and other problems in mixed lineages with those kinds of heavy, gene-count-changing modifications. On the other hand, you can make nicely interbreedable Norns by changing existing genes in a vanilla genome without adding or removing any, but the result is some degree of risk of mutation producing color changes during growth. (Actually that's not unrealistic - in real life it's often impossible to breed or engineer both of certain traits into one animal or plant... it can't be both fast AND big-boned, or have both high yield AND high produce quality... et cetera.) So I guess in the end you'll have to decide whether it's more important to you that the chance of color-changers being born is kept as low as possible, or that the Norns be able to mix with other breeds safely. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   Narol   3/17/2016 Well, my ultimate goal is to recreate my lost colored half-breed, the Darkstag Norns, by natural hybridation of existing breeds. You can see how they looked here. Right now, I plan to mix Evo Norn (instead of Zebras), CFF Fallows and Wood Norns (CFF too, instead of Treehuggers initially) to get the right sprites for each body parts, but the problem will be to get the right color genes. In my memory, the original Darkstag had not 128 in any color genes, but I don't remember the exact value of them so I'm gonna have to experiment and then find a way to throw those color genes in the mix...   Lurhstaap     3/17/2016 You know, it would be much easier to recreate them genetically in the kit rather than through breeding. You can choose the precise appearance of the Norn's body parts in the genetics kit as well - you can even give them ettin or grendel parts if you wish, allowing you to make a 100% fullblooded Norn that appears to be part Grendel or Ettin but is not. You just find the Appearance genes and set them to the breed you want. For example, if I wanted to make a breed that had the traits of grendels, but was a Norn and looked like a Draconian, I'd open up the basic Jungle Grendel genome, find the Appearance genes, and change them all to say Geat-Z, which is the slot the Draconians use. Then I'd just change the genus gene to Norn, and voila - a 100% Norn that acts like a grendel and looks like a Draconian. In your case, you'd just go and give it the body parts you want - Fallow head, Evo or Zebra body (whichever you prefer), et cetera. Much easier than trying to make them breed into the right look! XD As far as the color, it looks like you were using mostly colors in the green range from that screenshot. Note that 128 means neutral - numbers lower than that make a darker color and numbers higher than that make a brighter color. My dark blue Abyss Dragons for example begin at 127 blue 0 red 0 green. So when tweaking the color genes, keep that in mind - if you want a dark red, turn both other colors to 0 but don't turn up the red, just push it a bit below 128, and you'll get a nice rich dark color. And vise versa for vivid colors. Mind you, if you specifically WANT to make a breed through breeding, that's totally up to you - I did something a little similar with my Grendeltails, though I also began with modified genomes and then let them evolve from there. I just want to let you know that there is an easier way to get the same result just in case. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   Narol   3/17/2016 Indeed, the thing is that I want to breed them selectivily by natural methods, that's kinda how I enjoy to play Creatures ! Thanks anyway for the technical explanations, if one day I give up and try the way of direct genome modification, they will be very useful... Another question btw, if I create random norns using the SERU tool, will they have random colors ? Also please, is there a way to check if a random norn created using SERU is of the CFF/Evo type or of a non-CFF breed ?   Lurhstaap     3/17/2016 No problem! I understand. It's definitely more challenging that way. Good luck! I hope you get the results you want with only just enough effort to make it fun and satisfying. Honestly, both techniques have their place in breed creation IMO. The Abyss Dragons as I gengineered them are one thing, but they'll also evolve as they're kept and bred, and the highgen Abysses may end up pretty different from their ancestors. That's a stage in their development as well and very important too. That's one of the really great things about Creatures - there are almost infinite ways to approach it and make use of it. The only thing I'd caution is to make sure all your starting breeds are CFF or CFE to avoid sliders, stillbirths, and suchlike. Even then you may still see a few - the Grendeltails throw a decent number of sliders for reasons I don't really understand. You may want to try playing with the Genetics Kit for another project, or perhaps to make a sort of prototype Norn to manifest the goal you're trying to reach in breeding and see if that's really what you want or if maybe you might prefer something slightly different? I dunno, just suggesting ways the kit can be useful besides making breeds outright. :p SERU randomly combines multiple genomes, like breeding with six parents instead of two, kind of. So you could get pretty much anything out of it. If the genomes going in are colored, genomes coming out will probably be too. If you're using base 128, I don't know, because I don't use SERU myself and so I don't know if it mutates the genomes or just reshuffles them. If it mutates them too, then yes, you will probably get color results sooner or later. If it just shuffles what's in its database, then you'll only get color if there are color creatures in its database. However, from what I know of SERU, its database is potentially immense. So I think you've at least got a possibility of getting color out of it. Unfortunately, someone who knows SERU better will have to come along to tell you more than that. I don't know about your second question either. If there's a way to limit or control which genomes SERU is mixing to produce eggs, then you can ensure that only CFE/CFF genomes are available to be used. If not, then I don't think there's a way to tell unfortunately except for exporting the Norn and manually looking at its genes to see if it has all the extra CFE/CFF edits or not. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   Wingheart   3/17/2016 SERU mixes together around 5 random genomes at really high mutation rates.   Lurhstaap     3/17/2016 In that case, getting colored Norns is pretty likely, but they're also extremely likely to change colors as they grow, and they're also very unlikely to be fully CFE/CFF. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage"   Narol   3/17/2016 Ok, so I'd better avoid using SERU for that project... Maybe I'll give it a try just for fun but as a side project. Following your advice, I've started a world with exclusively : - Evo Norns 1.1 - CFF 1.1 Fallow Norns - CFF Wood Norns - Honey-Badger Norns (they are CFF-based) Should make an interesting mix, I hope... I'm letting it run feral for a while, I'm curious to see what kind of crossbreeds I'm gonna get, and if some go in the right direction for my project then I'll focus on them.

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