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 BlueLeafeon  |
I really like the icy terrariums people have made for C3/DS but of course my creatures are usually freezing whenever they're in those rooms. So I saw the Frost Norns and rather liked the idea, as well as their colors, and then downloaded the versions that have CFE/CFF genetics. However, whenever I try to raise a pair of 'em, the female for some reason or another becomes permanently terrified, and becomes unable to do ANYTHING but run back and forth in panic. This continues usually until she dies. Hoverdoc reports no toxins or bacteria, and I tend to keep my creatures VERY separated so I see absolutely no reason why this keep happening? The only thing I can think of is that there's an error in the genetics somewhere, but C3 Genetics Kit cannot load captions and I don't really know enough of what I'm doing to figure out what's wrong. The male is usually fine, but as I was writing this out and preparing the pictures, the same thing happened to him (and the female died)  Another thing of interest, I just noticed on the male, is that all three hunger stats are 0. But clearly this isn't true because they're too busy running around being panicked to eat. |
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 Wingheart |
Use the X-Ray agent to check their air? CFFs can tell if they don't have enough air and panic. It's possible that your world is slightly corrupted and for some bizarre reason there's no air in Chione. |
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BlueLeafeon |
I don't have/know what the X-Ray agent is, but I put Astro Norns there and they were thriving like nothing was wrong. I think it's something wrong with the Frost norns specifically. It makes me sad, because I do like them. |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
No air in the room? I highly doubt that. Rooms always default to air when created. Other room types like boggy soil are considered "air" for this purpose too. So when a creature can walk there, the only way for them not to get air would be being in water. Corruptions can be funny, but I don't think that it magically flooded the entire room. ...Though unlikely, perhaps you should look into it anyways. I recommend Moe's Room Changer. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Maybe she was having a heart attack or having trouble breathing for some other reason... Any norn with CFF-type genetics, if they panic and then die there is something wrong going on with either their respiration or heart... They will start to panic when their blood oxygen levels get low for any reason, because it gives them a burning sensation in their lungs and muscles from lactic acid buildup... A few things can do this, suffocation, dehydration, bad heart function, there's a list, but the main things to look at are their air and oxygen levels, their water level and hotness, and their heart and lung health... Dehydration is a big killer that can make a creature unable to breathe properly, stopping them from being able to absorb oxygen from the air in their lungs, usually happening if they get too hot... not likely I'd think in a base Chione, unless you had heating agents, but I think Frost Norns are more vulnerable to overheating than most. Try putting some Iceflowers around... These reduce hotness so they are great for stopping cold-loving creatures from overheating. Also, many CFF types can die of heart failure if they get obese (their adipose level totally maxed out)... If they get too fat like this then it starts to damage their hearts. This is unlikely to happen with the ones my base CFF C3 or DS breed packs, since they also have very slow liver function, making it very hard for them to store fat, but various crossbreeds, mutations and other CFF- or TWB based breeds may be more vulnerable to it, with the potential to die from various combinations of not enough activity or an overly rich diet. Not sure about how vulnerable the CFF Frost Norns are to heart failure, if they are at all, but I am pretty sure they can overheat more easily than most, so I'd give those iceflowers a try, they might just fix your problem. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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BlueLeafeon |
evolnemesis wrote: Seeing as how all three of their hunger stats were reduced to zero, this might have been a thing. That, and there's nothing really to prevent Norns from eating the same thing over and over. (Especially with these C1-to-DS food items, and ESPECIALLY the refridgerator.) Precisely how would one go about finding out if their liver function is slowed appropriately? Which gene would I be looking at? (Not that it matters, I guess. C3 genetics kit really hates working on my windows 7 comp. I can load genomes but exporting them to C3 doesn't seem to work.) |
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 Wrong Banshee Dragoler  |
At least in my experience (I found nothing in the genetics that can tie heart failure to dropping oxygen levels in the blood), death by heart disease is silent; the drop in ATP is so quick that they die almost instantly and show no signs of problems before their hearts fail completely. That said, what you described sounds very like a dehydration death, as evolnemesis suggested. Creatures use up water to keep themselves cool, when water drops too low they start to suffocate and panic. As these creatures need to be kept cold constantly and being CFE/CFF can't feel air temperature themselves, this sounds like the most likely problem. You will need to add in more agents to cool them down, I second on the Iceflowers. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.  |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
I think overheating and dehydration is the more likely cause of death in the case of the Frost Norns, especially given their panic and what Dragoler said... They are very vulnerable to heat... Try those Iceflowers... If you want to tell about liver function, just watch their level of 'adipose' using the x-ray or hoverdoc... If it gets high, increasing visibly when they eat something with fat, reaching maximum eventually in every norn around adulthood even if they are not really pigging out all the time, then their livers are not slowed... The slowing that is in the CFF base and mall breed packs is pretty drastic... ones with slowed livers tend to get very low glycogen levels eventually (especially after they get sick), sometimes groaning and making music like they are starving even when they aren't hungry, and retain almost no adipose at all... I'm not sure that those Frost Norns can even get heart failure when they get fat though... I think they may be based on CFF 0.8 which didn't have either the heart or liver changes. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Tea Queen Laura |
To tackle the dehydration, have you tried using the Swamp Dragon Toys? They give doses of water to overheated and thirsty creatures when pushed. Keep the green one away from your Norns though because it'll end up killing 'em!  |
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BlueLeafeon |
I somehow didn't see that part about dehydration at the end. You mean CFE Norns can't actually feel the temperatures of their environments, without the use of extra objects? If so, that's entirely what's going on, then... I'll give the ice flowers a shot. |
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Peppery One Papriko |
No, they can feel it. What the others mean is that maybe some agent in there emits heat although it is not supposed to. Those ice flowers actively absorb the heat and that way cool the room back down. Another way to cool them off would be the Needleleaf Carrots. They don't cool the room, but the creatures that eat them. That way you could cool them down internally and externally at once. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Not necessarily an agent... certain stimuli can also increase heat... Some activities increase hotness slightly, and fever toxin or some antigens can increase it drastically... Either way, something that actively reduces hotness and/or gives water like these listed agents will help make sure that your Norns aren't overheating. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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BlueLeafeon |
It's still happening, and in fact happened a LOT faster this time than it has the past few times. I didn't download the dragon toys yet because I wanted to see if the ice flowers would work first. Here's a picture of his drives, which, aside from a little coldness, are identical to how all previous Norns have looked when this happens:  Tried to use the X-Ray agent on him, and despite having gotten it to work before, it just flat-out crashed for some dumb reason. the .catalogue file is in both My Documents and the Program Files directory so bleh. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Papriko wrote: No, I meant what I said, regular creatures can't tell what temperature the room they are in is. @BlueLeafeon, this is odd, I think you should get the X-Ray agent and check their oxygen and water levels from there just so we can either confirm or rule it out. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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BlueLeafeon |
@BlueLeafeon, this is odd, I think you should get the X-Ray agent and check their oxygen and water levels from there just so we can either confirm or rule it out. I've been trying to get the darn thing to work for the past five minutes, and although the .catalogue file is in both places, whenever I inject it and try to look at a norn, an error comes up talking about how it cannot find tag "male organs" or "female organs" (depending on the sex of the norn) :/ Which is stupid because I had it working earlier. << EDIT:  Definitely seems like dehydration is the problem, but I don't understand why. He literally hatched 10 seconds ago and is already like this? |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
That is definitely a dehydration problem, it also looks like their breathing rate has been altered, which could be causing the imbalance. I will check the genome for you. Edit: found the problem, for some reason panting and cooling have been reversed to trigger on coldness rather than hotness. They are literally losing water trying to keep themselves not-cold o.O Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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BlueLeafeon |
Dragoler wrote: What the flip? Was that supposed to be intended, or was that one of those instances where the genetics kit "fixed" something that wasn't broken? That's certainly not going to help them live in the cold! Now if only genetics kit could load captions, I might be able to find these things and put them back the way it was. Are there any other genetics editors out there, besides the official one? |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
To fix the problem you will need to go into the genome and change all the genes responsible for cooling (2 receptors and 2 reactions, in the skin and the lungs) from coldness back to hotness. They are also gaining hotness through urination, looks like pretty much every instance of hotness/coldness has been swapped around. Find the .gno file for the CFF Magma Norns, copy it and rename it norn.frost.gno to fix captions. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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BlueLeafeon |
Ah, thanks! Now I can see captions! So if I save this .gen file, the egg agent will pick that up, right? Or will I need new egg agents? |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
So long as the name is the same the egg agent will use it. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Possibly the flipped genes in question were special adaptations the Magma Norns had which were missed or just not converted properly when trying to reverse everything (or just an instance of some temperature genes that were flipped in the breed conversion to Frost when they didn't need flipping). Magma Norns have some weird things in their genetics already, and these Frost Norns were originally adapted from a Magma genome. It sounds like fixing the .gen file as suggested and keeping it with the same name should work, though. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
One note: In X-Ray, I noticed you were graphing chemical 1 (lactate), i guess to see if they were suffocating... For anything based on CFF (unless it's based on some really old test adoption versions), to check that you should probably be graphing chemical 61 (it's a new chemical CFF use, Lactic Acid), as that is what shows lactic buildup in them, and it takes over the function of lactate in CFF. There are some problems with using the lactate chemical itself, mutations involving chemical #1 are VERY common (like over an order of magnitude more than any other chemical, thanks to a quirk in how biochemistry genes mutate), and the normal genetics involving lactate are broken anyway in pretty much all non-CFF, making it do nothing but cause complete muscle organ death and never leave the body if even the smallest amount ever gets in... Using a new chemical let me make the CFF genetics in such a way that crossbreeds are likely to be in good shape no matter what combination of those genes they get, because the genome is no longer using a chemical that is basically just poison to most creatures for anything, it is no longer affected by the lactate mutation issue, and the new chemical won't do anything to creatures who don't have the gene to use it... This let me also change lactate's half-life to 0 in their genetics, so it will tend to leave their bodies instantly... that way a crossbreed has even more ways to inherit at least one gene that will protect it from the mutation issue and the bad effects of the broken lactate genes that its normal parent would have suffered from. This way it is still very likely to be better off than its normal parent, even if it doesn't inherit the abilities to detect drowning and store backup energy in lactic acid which the full CFF low oxygen drowning response would give it... In real life, when lactate builds up in a body, it builds up as lactic acid anyway. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wingheart |
The X-Ray agent tracks lactate by default. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Interesting... Don't know how I didn't notice that... It's a bit odd, considering how lactate really does do nothing except kill the muscle organ and never leave the body or do anything else, in almost any C3/DS creature... I guess the maker of the X-Ray believed the lies in the manual about what it does. It IS listed in the C3 chemical list next to other chemicals involving respiration, and lactate did work properly for that in C2, showing up in them when their oxygen was low... The C3/DS manuals list lactate as having that same use in C3, and describes it as a BENEFICIAL chemical, so I guess that's why it's under that category in the X-Ray... (the manuals lie of course, all the base and mall C3/DS breeds had totally broken genetics involving lactate and it was never generated in them unless they got muscle toxin or a mutation, in which case it literally stays in them forever killing their muscle organs...) AFAIK very few custom breeds or genomes besides some early iterations of CFF ever made lactate work as it should or did anything useful with it... "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Arnout |
Oopsie, looks like I've been too rash again while working on a breed. I'm terribly sorry for all Frost Norns that had to suffer.  I've made a new comment on the Frost Norn page that includes a download link to new Genetics files. And from now on, I'll do some more testing before I release a breed... ![[ndoh]](/images/smilies/emot_doh.gif "[ndoh]") |
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Tea Queen Laura |
Thank you, Arnout! You're wonderful.  |
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BlueLeafeon |
Whenever I try to click the link on the Frost Norn page it just links to filedropper and wants me to upload a file? O_o I managed to fix the genetics but I have lost that particular file. Now I'm trying to fix it again and it's not working. Must have missed something, somewhere... |
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Arnout |
I've updated the link. Let me know if there's anything else. |
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