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 kittie887   |
So i've been thinking of trying a new approach to breeding norns to make them (or keep them) intelligent/better. All the times in the past that i've played Creatures my general overall goal was to breed a "better" norn. I spent years trying to come up with the best way to do this and have tried so many methods, and felt like i've failed with all of them. I've brainstormed a new method but it made me realize that most of my struggle is due to not knowing exactly how this part of the norn genetics works and I was hoping someone can enlighten me. By "this part" i mean the part of their genetics that causes them to know how to take care of themselves well, and more specifically the proper responses to certain drives as well as problem solving. An example is: if a norn is hungry, it follows the smell of food TO the food, using the lift properly along the way. (Not trying to eat the lift, the button, or pressing the button multiple times until the lift appears and then repeatedly walking into the side of it on the way up (or down) like it has a screw slightly loose ) This also makes me further wonder exactly what the limit to a norn's ability to learn is. What's the cap on norn intelligence? Exactly how complicated of a problem will a highly intelligent norn be able to solve before hitting the ceiling cap of what it's coding can allow? For example will knowing how to intelligently ride a lift like it knows exactly what it's doing and where it wants to go be the limit to what it will be able to do? Any insight? Or do you think it's impossible to breed a norn that will never run into walls, know when to run away from a grendel without getting hit, know how to care for all of it's drives expertly and always give the best advice to fellow norns as well as problem solve? |
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 Wrong Banshee Dragoler  |
Speaking from my understanding of C3/DS genetics, most intelligent behaviors are controlled by instincts which are able to mutate, with the exception of the navigation genes in some breeds. Navigation is controlled by several instincts and stimuli which rely on a script to activate. Norns aren't capable of thinking to use lifts to reach objects by themselves, they can smell when something is above or below them, then the game will give them either "up" or "down" drive and that will drive their instincts to use the lift. As for intelligence, the brain cannot mutate like the other genes (not saying it can't change though, because it does, that's how learning works), some breeds have more advanced brains than others, such as CFEs and CFFs so they could be considered more intelligent. I will also add that some people have come up with IQ tests. I think the most popular is to hatch a Norn in the Capillata warp room then time how long it takes the creature to find its way to the Meso. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.  |
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 Wingheart |
I'd use CFFs as a starting point. They aren't button obsessed, are reasonably smart, and can take care of their drives better than vanilla norns. Alas if you are using DS, the button/elevator/door eating is a bug. |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
CFEs, CFFs and CFGs are all good. I think there are a handful of bugs with CFFs at the moment, but I'm sure evolnemesis is in the process of sorting them out. If you've made large areas of the ship without food in order to test IQ, make sure to use something like the Brainfarter to prevent Eat Elevator Syndrome. There are a lot of other good agents around that help creatures learn, usually by making object behaviors more consistent or adding smells to objects. Have a look around the downloads section here. Creatures can't solve very complex problems. As far as I'm aware, their problem solving ability is limited to "I have this drive, I should do this." They can't learn to perform a sequence of events to get a result (e.g. "I am hungry for fat, I should push a vendor, because they make fatty foods, then I should eat said fatty foods.'') This stops vendors from being a very effective food source (try the Garden Box instead) and it also messes with their navigation abilities a bit - probably the reason why they were originally given "push button when bored" type instincts. If you want to learn what role instincts play in learning and behavior, this article on instinctless Norns is a good starting point! Hope that helps.  |
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kittie887 |
Wow, you were all extremely helpful! Thanks for the Brainfarter link, I didn't know that existed! I'll look around for more things like this. Also, I have used CFE's and CFF's before, but I forgot where to go for the CFFs, could you help me out with that? I haven't heard of CFG's, what's that? |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
You can download CFFs from the breed section on this site. ylukyun Until then you could also try TWBs which have most of these bugs fixed, ignoring the thermoregulation system they are essentially CFFs. The official genome egg agents aren't out yet but there is a creature pack up. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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 Allekha |
CFGs are Creatures Full of Gizmo, or CFEs with Gizmo Norn edits. |
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kittie887 |
Ok. I am definitely going to try out the CFG's. They sound wonderful. But it makes me wonder, what is the difference between all three of those? CFF, CFE and CFG's? It seems like to me Cff and CFG are more updated/better than CFE's. Are they very different from each other at all? |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
CFEs have brain edits to help them remember how much they like each other after they sleep (the base genome forgets) and a couple of minor fixes. Gizmos have an overhauled metabolism, instincts(?) and life span, I never used them so I don't know the extent of their changes. CFGs are Gizmos with the CFE brain edits added. CFFs are CFEs with additional fixes added and are designed to be compatible with the base genomes and CFEs, as the Gizmo changes make them mostly incompatible. A list of CFF changes can be found here Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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kittie887 |
So would it then be wise not to breed CFG and CFF together? Also, do CFG's forget how much they like each other after they sleep? If I can't breed them together without major problems it'll be hard to choose which one to use. |
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 Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
There shouldn't be any issues crossbreeding CFF with CFE or CFG; they were explicitly designed to make crossbreeding a non-issue. CFG have CFE brain edits, so like the CFE they won't lose their memories every time they fall asleep. As an additional note, CFF have brain edits that are intended to make them more curious. In theory this sounds great, but in practice I've found it makes them rather forgetful. If you're just going to be crossbreeding them then it should sort itself out after a few generations, but it's something to keep in mind. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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kittie887 |
Thanks for all of the information! I think i'll try sticking to CFG only, for the time being at least, and see what I get! Also, I am well aware of the IQ test involving the DS and have used it myself. I am currently attempting to come up with further tests to judge other aspects such as response to danger for example. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
So I have been reading up on Gizmos (and by extension CFGs), most of their changes seem to be present in some way or another in other genomes (the hunger system sounds similar to the one in TWBs but more accelerated, the breeding system sounds similar to the one in CFFS but with more complex tweaking?), the primary difference with them seems to be weakened instincts. Theoretically that could be a good and bad thing. Creatures would have weaker preferences and be better able to learn from their actions, but they might also be less inclined to do the things they need to in order to fulfill their drives. Could be interesting, will have to experiment with that a bit myself. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
One thing to keep in mind is that Gizmos can't do IQ tests. IQ tests work by smell, and creatures can't smell anything until the child lifestage. if a Gizmo Norn goes until the child lifestage without food, it will starve to death. I don't know if this applies to CFGs or not - it probably says on the page. |
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kittie887 |
ylukyun wrote: So you're saying don't give a gizmo the IQ test until he is at least adolescent or youth? |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I thought Gizmos had their smell lobes enabled from birth to compensate for that? Again though, that is just based on stuff I have read not experience. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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 KittyTikara |
I don't know about the original gizmos, but the CFE Gizmos don't have their smell lobes or navigation instincts turn on at birth. They should be able to pass IQ tests once they're children though. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog |
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