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Norn Insanity   
the1whoscreams

the1whoscreams
United States  


  9/15/2015  1

What are some strange things you've seen Norns say or do? I'll start here. I just injected an Evo Norn with chemical 130, upon which she immediately sat down and rested. I asked her what she was doing, and she said she was eating food, even though there was no food in sight. I locked another one in an empty container with a gadget, and when injected, she promptly beat the poor gadget up until it was broken and then began drooling on herself while imagining that she was pushing machinery, pushing buttons, pushing manky, and eating seeds.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  9/15/2015  1

lol... I can't wait to see what one of those that mutates to make some 130 in its body will be like...

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
the1whoscreams

the1whoscreams



  9/15/2015  2

So, after that, I hatched a firstgen and injected him with 130. He then went into a trance and started dreaming about detritus land for five minutes. Seriously, all his thoughts were about pushing, pulling, getting, hitting, and eating detritus. He was locked in a medical pod with no agents in sight, and at the time, he's still in detritus land. I wonder what would happen if I gave him some detritus? *gives detritus to furiously hallucinating baby Norn* He started hitting and retreating from the detritus, and he also ate it.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  9/16/2015  1

To him that's the most fascinating kind of thing he's seen in his life :) and flying all over the place yet... I bet he couldn't wait to mess with it... I think when they get stuck like that they are imagining they are interacting with one of the phantom objects that they can't actually see... I guess if whatever kind of object they are seeing is really nearby, they can actually do stuff with it and learn from it, because the game makes them focus attention on a real version of that object if it's nearby.

At a high level of the chemical, these objects have to be really stimulating, so they get obsessed with them... I guess with nothing else in sight, there was nothing to distract him from his imaginary detritus adventure, and even when the chemical had worn off, he was happy to keep thinking about that really weird flying detritus he saw... I have a feeling when he got hungry, he would have started thinking about some kind of food eventually.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Snails

Snails



  9/16/2015  2

I don't know if this counts, but I once had a norn sort of... commit suicide on me? In C2 I had a female adolecent norn laying on the ground smiling. I asked her what was up, and she looked at me, saying she was tired. She then promptly walked up to a stray deathcap and ate it, despite there being other food where she was laying. She died soon after.

I'm GarbageSnail on SecondLife and Scum (GROSS)#4691 on Discord!
 
SlimeTV

SlimeTV



  10/2/2015

it seems like chemical 130 is like some LSD type drug to creatures..

"Nuh-uh-uh girl, you do NOT need another pet simulator-"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  10/3/2015

It causes visual hallucinations... The strength of the effect varies with dosage... It's similar to something real called tryptamine, a brain chemical, so I've started calling it that. Tryptamines are a class of related chemicals made naturally in the brains of mammals that includes essential neurotransmitters and neuroregulators, (serotonin is one for example) some of which can have these kind of effects when administered or released naturally in excessive amounts. Many plants and fungi also make these chemicals naturally.

Tryptamines are also involved in dreaming... So you can blame them for all the weird dreams you've ever had... basically dreaming is extra firing and stimulation of neuron pathways in your brain, caused by your brain releasing certain of these chemicals, and that's exactly the kind of thing Chemical 130 does in the Evo norns and CFF 1.1... it actually stimulates extra firing of neuron pathways in the visual part of their brains... People who have hallucinatory disorders often make too much of this stuff in their brains naturally, and it works on their visual cortexes in much the same way... If any of these norns mutated to make it themselves, they would be the same as those people, and see things all the time. They'd literally be insane... luckily this should be rare, and it's unlikely they'd be able to pass on any severe form of this.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Yme

Yme



  10/3/2015

evolnemesis wrote:
it actually stimulates extra firing of neuron pathways in the visual part of their brainsand that's exactly the kind of thing Chemical 130 does in the Evo norns and CFF 1.1... it actually stimulates extra firing of neuron pathways in the visual part of their brains.




Why do the Norns need this? Is it just for fun, or does it have a function in them?

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  10/3/2015

Maybe you could rig them to produce it when they sleep, and reduce it when awake. Let the creatures dream :o

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  10/3/2015

Yme wrote:
Why do the Norns need this? Is it just for fun, or does it have a function in them?


Yeah, it was basically just an experiment for fun with the Evos, since I was looking at how their brains produce random thoughts, and I thought, hmm, what if I copied those rules that they already have which naturally add randomness to their verb/noun lobes, and put them on their visual input tracts, would they actually act like they are seeing random things, and look around? or would they focus on other random things of that category anywhere on the ship? and how would they try to interact with them, or could they even?

It was mainly about seeing how this tract works and how they perceive things and focus their attention... Their brains are pretty mysterious, and not really well documented anywhere. I didn't know exactly how it would affect them, and I didn't want them to be affected all the time or too badly, so I thought it made sense to make the magnitude of the random factor controlled by the level of a new chemical they wouldn't have naturally.

People have found it fun to mess with though, and it doesn't seem harmful to them... someone even made a plant agent that makes the chemical, so it kind of made sense to keep that effect along with the brain tweaks that make them more curious. Besides, I kind of like the idea of norns who have more realistic brain chemistry and can even possibly mutate to have an overabundance of neurotransmitters and get the same kind of mental conditions people are subject to under the same circumstances...

I think experimenting with it has actually come up with something useful and helped me figure out something new about the DS Eat Elevator bug, and given me a good idea how I might figure out a genetic fix for it (this fix could have a side-effect of making them slightly resistant or at least able to eventually snap themselves out of mind control like the Creatures Remote Control and the orders given by some of the Magic Words... Brainwashing-resistant Creatures to fight the Evil Entity)

Dragoler wrote:
Maybe you could rig them to produce it when they sleep, and reduce it when awake. Let the creatures dream :o


The game engine already makes them dream when asleep, and it is key to their learning... Pretty much, when they are asleep, the game paralyzes them, and sends random hypothetical situations to their brains by firing random neurons in some of their lobes and watches their response... (again, this is pretty much what happens in real animals and people when they dream... there is a paralysis effect, and random established neuron connections in parts of your brain get stimulated, including parts like your visual and auditory cortex, and your speech cortex, and your pre-frontal cortex)

The responses that match those in any of its instincts will get rewarded (or punished) just how the instinct promises, letting them connect that situation with that concept... This is how their instincts get processed and learned. I always find it amazing every time I delve into the engine and their biochemistry and brains just how sophisticated they are and how much realistic detail is built in there.

But all in all, probably a bad idea to have them make it when asleep... I think having them always seeing even OTHER random things while they are dreaming would probably not be too good for their instinct processing.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  10/3/2015

It seems like I am always finding new layers of depth to these games!

Theoretically then, creatures who sleep for longer could be made to show complex behaviors based upon instincts without unlearning them as quickly?


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  10/3/2015

Dragoler wrote:
It seems like I am always finding new layers of depth to these games!

Theoretically then, creatures who sleep for longer could be made to show complex behaviors based upon instincts without unlearning them as quickly?



Sounds plausible... The problem in C2 with 'OHSS' seems to have been really just caused by a sleep deficiency, due to the creatures in some genomes not being able to properly focus on themselves when tired so they could rest.

EDIT: Still, the process of learning all their instincts through dreaming might be pretty fast, so it's possible you'd not get much return on making them sleep longer.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 


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