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Assorted newbish questions on C2 and C3   
Shambler0

Shambler0



  6/7/2014

Hello, people. I am completely new to this game and trying to get a hang of it.

There is a lot of things I do not understand, and especially if that what was written about the game still apply to community-developed genomes and recent versions of the game.

(When I ask if there is a feature, I not only mean a built-in one, but also from custom COB, mod, companion program, etc)

If some webpage has an answer to my question(s), or you know how exaclty to google that up, just point me there, I can read ;-)


Answered questions are coloured like this, but more opinions are still appreciated. "{redacted}" means that I edited the question to make it sound a bit clearer. I generally do not copy hyperlinks - if interested, see what other answered on some subject.


On user interface:

(questions apply to both C2 and C3)

1) Is there a way to add more colored lines to biochem graph than possible by default in C2?

2) Is there any nicer interface to brain diagram to see what exactly did they learn over last several minutes?

3) Is there a way to reduce game speed or set it on pause that does not completely block user interface? I am often not quick enough to respond on creature's need before they switch their attention to something else...

4) Are there hotkeys to reward and punish currently selected creature in C2? I seem to miss the clicks for those routinely.
Answer for C3: hold INS or DEL, then click a creature

5) {redacted 2} When a creature looks at something, but does not know its name, how can I find out what exactly they are looking at, when few objects are too close to each other. I.E. is a norn looking at tomato plant, or a tomato underneath it?
Answer: Try saying a single random non-memorized word, then compare their answer with what is written in square brackets when mouse hovering each object (C2) or F1/right click (C3). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Unfortunately norns often seem to switch attention before I finish typing...
So the only sure-fire way is to instead encourage them to look at each object, and name them all.


6) Is there a way to constantly monitor any creature's biochems and neural activity in C3/DS (like it is possible in C2)?
DS has hoverdoc for that, there are also some custom agents.
There is also the biochemistry set


7) Is there a list of all standard objects (plants, critters, ...) with a description or tips for each one?
Answered: the wiki has category pages for that, and Allen has image gallery that can be used to look up things by their appearence. Not terribly convinient but that works.
In C3 right-clicking gives some kind of description.


8 ) Is there a complete directory of what words from default vocab of a newborn norn ("gaa", "boop", "dat", etc) mean?
Answer: {redacted 2} It is in catalogues\Norn.catalogue in C3:
"goo", "foo", "flib", "doo" # verb
"dis", "dat", "bab", "daa" # noun
"gaa", "oogh", "bibble", "boop" # drive
"ba", "coo", "flub", "na" # special (look yes no like dislike...)
"vre", "rly", "exmly", "i" # qualifier
"em", "me", "eem", "bub" # "me"
So, if I understand it correctly, for each thing they pick one word for each category at random, and some things may end up using the same word. That means there is no way to understand them before teaching them proper language.


9) How can I change the language that learning-computer teaches? that is, let's say I want to make creatures undestand word "good" instead of "yes".
Answer for C1: There is a button on the learning computer
Answer for C2: It is probably impossible by default.
However some custom COBs can teach custom words, "encyclopedia nornica" is one of those.
Answer for C3: Modify game files, they are in text format




General

10) {redacted} Is there a game-installation and configuration guide for newbies that takes windows 7/8, newly developed breeds and custom COBs into account? Like "install game, then install this update, edit your registry like that, inject these cobs but do not touch those, now import one of those eggs..."

11) Some people saying C2 is 'better' than C3. What exactly they think is better? multiple-window-oriented interface? better custom genomes? more community-made COBs? anything else? what is worse? there probably is a detailed discussion on that somewhere, but I only found small "flame wars" giving too few details.

12) Is there a ready-to-use specialized program that backs up world periodically? I know of generic backup systems, but ask for creatures-specific one.

13) Where can I found a more or less complete list of useful websites dedicated to creatures games?
Answer: Shambler0 exmly stupid, look LINKS section of this website :-)
The wiki also has a lot of those, use archive.org if they are down


14) Are there C2 akamai canny norns in the form of EGG files, and not importable EXP-files?
Answer: Hatchery expansion actually does that




On norn behaviour and interaction:

(questions are mostly on akamai canny, nova subterra, but also default C3 genomes)


15) Is there a valid newbie guide on teaching / caring for C2 nova subterra / akamai canny norns?
Answer: There are few youtube videos, though it may not be an obivoious way to understand which use which genome... though they could be used as a starting point for some experimentation.

16) What is a time period during which they understand that they are rewarded (or punished) for something they have just done, and not necesserily for something they are doing right now?
Answer: A few seconds, the faster the better. That really reinforces the question of slowing up game speed on demand...

17) Is it still a valid tip to reward a norn few times for successfully eating, playing and sleeping? I see on the biochem graph that they are rewarded for this already, and canny breed norns seem to sleep a lot more than they ever need. When I reward them too much they seem to catch some of the effects of that famous "stupidity syndrome"
Answer: Some say it is best to let them learn everything themselves (you still can suggest them i.e. eating food - but they automatically learn that it is a good thing after they try), others say is probably best to tickle a bit once, but not too much, and don't mess with sleeping. I myself found both ways work.

18 ) (C2) Let's say, I want a norn (named MyNornName) to push a toy. I say "MyNornName push toy". They answer "toy" each time, look at it, and do not do anything useful, despite I repeat myself many times. Am I supposed to repeat just "MyNornName push", or I have to say just "push" then?
Answer: {redacted 2}
Papriko suggested that (in C3) it could mean they did not fully learn what 'toy' is. After a while they should stop repeating "toy" and act.
However in C2 I found this probably happens when they just prefer to ignore my command, but they still can learn noun at the same time. I don't know why is that. When norns happen to stop ignoring me they stop repeating "toy" and go push it.


19) {redacted} If they want/need to eat food, do they need to learn to first "come food", or "get food" before they can "eat food"? That is, do they need to form another mind connection to actually approach object before using it, or they automatically approach objects which they want to interact with?
Answer: Just "eat food" is enough - they know they need to aproach it. But food must be in sight range


20) {redacted} How do they understand items that they are carrying around? For some reason they are sometimes reluctant to actually use those.
Answer: They should be able to use them when they start searching for an object of matching type. To me it looks like if they see another of this type somewhere nearby, they may switch attention to that, ignoring what they are already carrying

21) Are they able to learn that following any of my orders in rewarding, and not only specific orders in specific conditions?

22) My norns often say "why?". What do they want? Can I answer such a question in a way they can understand?

23) {redacted} What are phrases/sentences (rather that individual words) they can understand? I.e. they do know words "hungry", "eat" and "food", but can I say something like "if hungry then eat food" to encourage them to make a connection between hunger and eating?
Answer: No, although they may probably be able to take such suggestions from other creatures

24) {redacted} (This is C2 only) Norns say "MyNornName yes". What do they mean? Are they just babbling around?
Answer: They say that when they do something that is very rewarding to them


On norn neuroscience:

(questions are on akamai canny, nova subterra, and default C3 genomes)


25) What are norn/ettin/grendel senses? Are they able to distinguish sounds? see background? know object colors?
Answer: {redacted 2}
Vision: Neuron associated with item category fires if such item is in sight range
Sound: some objects make sound that norns can hear. They can tell direction and strength of sound, which decreases with distance and is muffled by any objects inbetween sound source and creature. They may switch attention to object producing sound and approach it.
Smell (C3 only?): They know what direction is the smell coming from, and its strength (decreases with distance). They are able to travel toward smell sources. Smell can reach a long range, with "Norn home"-like smells probably reach through entire C3 map(?).


26) Do norns have immidiate memory? For example, are they able to understand reward a minute after an action, provided I focus their attention on object in question?
Answer: No


27) Can they form and learn any thought chains? Like "press button makes cheese appear -> cheese is a valid target for eating -> eating is rewarded if hungry", or only "if i'm hungry, pressing the button has some relationship to being rewarded (from hunger decrease) after a short while"
Answer: Only simple thoughts are possible like "i'm bored -> push toys"

28 ) Is there any way they can learn to abstract from or generalize things except for built-in object categories? Such as understanding that both "food" and "fruit" are "edible items", and then understanding that "eating an edible_item is rewarding", instead of having completely independent thoughts on "fruit" and "food".
Answer: {redacted 2} Not directly what I meant, but the documents show that they should be able to generalize some kinds of situations: if they recieve stimuli A&B&C, and have a memories related to having stimuli A&B, A, B&C, they should be able to use those (but memory about A&D is ignored). However, it seems that to their senses, "food" and "fruit" have nothing in common except both being "items", and they seem to be incapable of associating any kind of "new" neuron to both of them and then use it as input. However, i can guess genetically adding new lobes theoretically might allow them to do that on basic level, although it wouldn't be easy.

29) Can someone give an example of maximum complexity of thoughts a norn can learn / understand?
Answer: They seem to only form very simple thought patterns like "hungry -> eat food". C3 norns are more "robotic" than canny ones.
For C3 there is also CFE breed ("Creatures Full of Edits";) which is designed to be smarter


30) Can they distinguish between different buttons, toys, plants, and more importantly, "nature"-type objects? Different subtypes of those? Different individual objects? Objects of same type in different locations?
Answer: No, only categories

31) Can they tell apart different individual norns?
Answer for C3/DS: They seem to be able to do that.

32) Do they really know where they are in the world? That is, are there "receptors" that sense absolute X/Y position, with the ability to learn coordinates of points of interest? Or maybe they can distinguish some zones and learn how are they connected to each other?
Answer: They actually navigate by smell. The only fixed landmarks are ettin/grendel/norn home in C3


33) Are norns actually able to understand the need to be in some specific region of the world and thoughtfully navigate/pathfind there?
Answer: They go in general direction in which landmark smell increases intensity


34) Can they ever plan ahead? Like know that they will be more hungry than lonely a minute later and eat some food while they are passing it?
Answer: No


35) Is there detailed information on how exactly a norn brain work?
Answer: {redacted 2} [B]Malkin[/B] has provided links to some good articles in his posts below.
There are also several fan articles partially describing the subject, scattered around the web.
Some info on nova subterra, canny and CFE norns is on homepages of respective authors.




Great many thanks you read through all the questions and hopefully answered some. Yay, you are awsome, thank you again!

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/7/2014  1

6 - For C3 chemical graphing on a Windows machine, get the Biochemistry Set 1.27 from here.

You might like to read this for more information on the brain.


My TCR Norns
 
KittyTikara

KittyTikara


 visit KittyTikara's website: The Mobula Ray
  6/7/2014  1

4. In C3/DS, you can press either insert or delete to turn your hand into the reward/punish one, but it doesn't do it automatically.
5. In C2 you can hover over an object to get the name of it and also what the currently selected Creature calls it. In C3/DS you can press F1 or bring up a little question mark next to the hand. Then click on an object and it'll tell you the name. This is also how you teach Creatures the words for that object in C3/DS.
7. Alien's Creatures World is probably the best introduction to the games.There's also the Creatures Wiki. Here's the wiki entry for C2, and here the C3 one.
8. There is, or used to be one, but I can't think of it off the top of my head.
9. In C2 press the buttons around the learning computer and it should let you change it. I just don't remember which button. There isn't a way to change it in C3/DS, at least not as easily.
10. If you mean a modding guide then er yea not really? There's a supposed "must haves" list for C2 here, but it's debatable how much you need some of those cobs. You will need the Canny Norns to truly enjoy C2, in my opinion anyway. The list for C3/DS is here. Out of that list you will probably want the Creatures Full of Edits, or CFE, and the remastered patch, plus the Vampess fixes if you like to run C3 docked with the DS game.
11. I like both of them in different ways? C2 has the better world, music, more realistic Norns(If you use the third party Norns anyway), and is pretty lovely. It's also the buggeyest game out of them all. C3/DS has the best agents, and you can customize the worlds to your heart's content. It also has the best Norns if you want to throw them into a wolfling run. I say play all of the games and find the one you like the most. I like C1 for it's simplicity and the fact it can run in normal color mode. I like C2 for it's atmosphere and Norns. I like C3/DS because it's what I started with and it's the most customizable.
13. There is a list here on the site and one on the Wiki. Don't be surprised if some of the links are dead. I sometimes go through the list and update links, but it's boring and I haven't done that in quite a while.
14. There's a hatchery expansion on the Canny Norn link up above.
15. The only thing close to it are Lusewing's old videos and they aren't about Canny Norns. Just start raising some Norns is all I can say.
17. I like to tickle them for eating and playing a few times when they are babies, just so the idea gets planted into their head a little quicker. I don't mess with them when they are sleeping though. C2 Norns are terrible sleepers, and I figure they'll learn how to sleep sooner or later.
18. Sometimes they just don't want to push the toy? I don't really know.
19. No. Just say eat food and they'll navigate to it and eat it. It usually has to be within sight range for them to actually eat it though.
20. I've seen them use objects they are carrying before, though not to often.
23. In C3/DS you can ask Norns what and express. You can also ask them things like "Full" or "Sleepy" and they'll tell you if they are sleepy or full.
25. They mostly see and smell things. They have an amazing sense of smell in C3/DS. I'm not certain about sound. They don't know colors and only know what an objects broad category. For example, a carrot and cheese are both just food to them.
29. They are sort of stupid. It's mostly just "I'm hungry, and there is some food. I think I will eat it. Yum. Now I'm bored, there's a toy. Yay. Now I'm happy." They can surprise you with how well they take care of themselves though. C3/DS Norns are more robotic then the Canny Norns on average.
30. No, just categories.
31. I think? They can in C3/DS, but it doesn't really change much.
32. Maybe? Usually they know where they are in relation to objects and other Norns but not where they are in the world. In C3/DS the only absolutes are Norn, Ettin, and Grendel home.
33. The closest thing I can think of is Norn home in C3/DS, but that's about it?
34. Not really?


The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog
 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  6/7/2014  1

No idea on C2 questions, so I try to skip those which do not apply to C3:

3. Not sure. I guess you could add tons of things till the game runs down (could be done in a controlled manner, since the game is able to check how fast or slow it runs). Probably not quite what you meant, though.

4. There definitely are hotkeys, but I forgot which ones they are. As long as you hold them, clicks will ALWAYS be reward or punishment, regardless where you aim.

5. In C2 there was some cool camera agent I believe (or was it C1? played neither). In C3, you can mark the creature (so that it has the red arrow above it's head). After that the object of attention is marked with a similar green arrow.

6. There are third party objects like the Health Bar or the X-Ray for organs.
When you have DS installed along with your C3, you can use the hoverdoc as well.

7. In C3/DS you can hit F1. Left-clicking an object will give you the name creatures call it by, right-click will give a "proper" description for the player (i.e. you). Also works on creatures to jump straight into their status window.

8. The words do not have a very specific meaning. I mean, they do mean something, but it is just stuff like "generic verb" or "high drive". Better just teach them speaking straight away. In DS with the HLM (warning: addictive!) or in C3 with the stones of wisdom.

9. You had to modify game files for that. It is not thaaaat hard, since they are plaintext, but you still have to know a bit what you do.

10. For installing the games, there should be a hand full of topics in the Help forum. For "what are the coolest additions" look into the General forum, there are frequently such topics. For "how to develop stuff" you can check out this.

11. People like keeping creatures as pets. C3 norns are somewhat more independent (still pretty dumb, though). Many people also prefer the hand-drawn charme of C2 over C3's sprites which were rendered from 3D models.

12. Not that I know.

13. You mean something like this?

16. No more than a few seconds I guess. The faster, the better.

17. You can try a bit, but do not exaggerate, otherwise they do nothing else anymore.

18. Usually they haven't fully learned "toy" then. It looks stupid, but they technically do not perfectly know it. The effect is more obvious with long words such as "machinery". After a while they should stop saying toy and actually do it.

19. They only need to know those words to communicate with you. They can do all actions on all objects without knowing the words.

20. Actually they should use those once they look for an object of the type they hold.

21. I don't know to be honest.

23. None, sadly. They only take that kind of suggestions from other creatures and I always doubted if they really actually listen to them to be honest...

24. This is a C2 question, but I understood it so from what I heard: they say that when they do something that they consider very rewarding.

25. They can smell (which they ironically do with their feet :P) and they can see objects. Those objects are only distinguished by nouns, though. A fruit is a fruit, regardless which plant it came from. When one is bad, they are all bad. Is one good, they are all good.

26. Nope.

27. I think CFE can do this on a basic level.

28. They can feel rewarded for an action in general. Problem: they may try to eat.... weird things.

29. "I am bored - Let's push some toys" "I am hungry for starch - I should eat seeds" "Creature XY is a jerk - I should beat him up" Can occur in any combination of drives and verbs.

30. As mentioned before, they exclusively distinguish by the nouns. Only exceptions are creatures. They can remember a few individual creatures.

31. Hah, already answered as well :D

32. Nah, they navigate by smells. When they are hungry, they approach the smell of the kinda food they need/want. When they are lonely, they approach the smell of the same species as they are, and so on.

33. See 32

34. Nope.

35. Somewhere probably. Forgot where, though. I still hope someone posts a decent brain guide in our dev resource section.


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Shambler0

Shambler0



  6/7/2014

Thanks, Papriko, KittyTikara and Malkin.
That really helped a lot.

You people are super cool! Yay!



by 5) I mean: My norn thinks that plants are named "fruit" and waterpump is named "toy" because I cannot tell if a norn looks at one or another when they are close to each other. I kinda hoped there is a way to get some kind of a text representation of what they are looking at, or hide all other objects from eye view, or something like that...
Okay, I probably figured it out: "what" command actually works even before they learn anything. I just have to mouseover each object nearby and see if it matches the word they babbled.

{redacted} Okay, "what" makes them say their need when after they did learn the word "what".
Instead just type a random (and I mean random) sequence of letters. Norns try to memorize that garbled word into an even more garbled word and say it. Now mousover where they are looking and find whatever word they just said. It is not a problem to then teach them a proper name for that item after that.
Unfortunately the procedure usually takes too long, and they switch their attention to something else. So teaching them words for all possible things they can see is probably a must to understand them.

10) not modding, but installation guide. Which COBs are recommended to install right away (like, er, C2 sleep update maybe? or am I supposed to NOT inject it for canny norns?) what is the right sequence to install all of the updates?

27) what is CFE? this? --> http://creatures.virtualheaven.nl/agents/cfe/


I also edited 1st post a bit so that anyone who wants to answer remaining questions wouldn't need to answer all of them.

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  6/7/2014

Yes, those are the CFE - Creatures Full of Edits. They are not quite as dumb as normal C3/DS creatures and one of the most popular additions.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Barb

Barb



  6/7/2014

I am also new to the games, just want to thank you for organizing and editing your initial post so that it is easy to follow the responses. I have learned much from this post.

 
Shambler0

Shambler0



  6/7/2014

Is it a good idea to compile my questions and some more I found already answered into a FAQ page on the wiki?

Could someone knowledgeable look through it afterwards to correct possible misundestangings on my side?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  6/7/2014  1

The answer for number 8 is in the Norn.catalogue file in your game's 'catalogues' folder. Each genus of creature has their own listing for these words in the catalogue

Here is the stuff for norns:

"goo", "foo", "flib", "doo" # verb
"dis", "dat", "bab", "daa" # noun
"gaa", "oogh", "bibble", "boop" # drive
"ba", "coo", "flub", "na" # special (look yes no like dislike...)
"vre", "rly", "exmly", "i" # qualifier
"em", "me", "eem", "bub" # "me"





"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/7/2014

Oh, seriously, it's for pay now? :( It wasn't the last time I looked. There's also "Creatures: Artificial Life Autonomous Software Agents for Home Entertainment" (PDF Link) and a chapter in this book by Steve Grand, and this article in New Scientist. For community resources, try the Creatures Development Resource.

A FAQ page for the wiki would be novel. :) Another place you could submit your questions would be to Discover Albia's help page.


My TCR Norns
 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/8/2014

You might be able to find some information on Canny or Nova Subterra care on alt.games.creatures.

My TCR Norns
 
Wooly

Wooly



  6/9/2014

As for 9, I sincerely recommend Slink's Encyclopedia Nornica cob (there is a C1 version as well which looks the same, so make sure to get the right one). It let's you edit the words in-game and is a lot more effective for teaching overall too.

When it comes to C2 norns, I hardly ever punish or reward them for anything, after having read this article by Lis Morris many years ago. It works quite well for me to let them learn by instinct instead (I do tell them what to do sometimes, but only if I have to), and I use the same methods for all types of norns no matter the genetics.

 
Shambler0

Shambler0



  6/9/2014

Thanks!

Wooly, you forgot a ":" after "http" in your hyperlink. Add that and it will work. An interesting article, thank you.




After studying C2 norn senses a bit, I could not find any related to their position in the world at all. So in C2 they probably have no understanding, where they are. However there do exist smells, few orientational chemicals - "up/downatropine", and also "turnase" which I do not completely understand yet. This brings up some questions:

36) Have anyone ever observed a norn using elevator in C2 to get somewhere where they wanted to be in (instead of just randomly walking into lifts and using them)? AFAIK, they should to be able to learn to do that, but I have never seen it.

37) (C2) How could (akamai canny) norns even know when to avoid wall-bonking? They do it a lot all the time, and seem to be simply unable to learn "where" walls are.
Is there a way to help them? The only thing I could think of is putting a force-field at each place they could headbonk. Maybe they could be teached to avoid some kind of smell, or being near a certain object, or something like that?

38 ) Is there any way to remove brass water taps that norns bonk their heads at every single time they come to drink from? The best I could think of was setting up a force-field COB, and putting several hollowed coconuts as alternate drink sources nearby.

Moreover, they seem to probably relate pain from bonking to other creatures in sight range, so it just might be the reason why they soon get very fist-happy towards their nearby brothers and sisters. And because there is often no immidiate punishment for doing that, it seems to be really hard to get that behaviour off them.

39) How could I understand, who just hit a norn?
If there are two norns close to each other, I could set an alarm for pain>0, and when it fires for one of them, punish another one. But when they hang around in larger groups (and they tend to do that a lot) this method does not work.

40) Which one of sleep script COBs should I inject for akamai canny/nova subterra norns: sleep update, sleep restore, albia updates, some other, or none at all? Are there any recommendations on (not) using other "script update" or similar COBs?

41) Is there any known way to silence the buzzing of teleporter, squeaking of doosers, and other annoying sounds, other that replacing related WAV-files with blank ones like I did? I ask because I found a COB that silences bees, and it works great.

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/12/2014

Turnase is part of the fight or flight response. :)

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  6/17/2014

in C2, upatrophine and downatrophine seem like they are supposed to have the equivalent purpose of the navigational 'up' and 'down' drives in c3... that is, they seem like they are supposed to act almost as drives, they get increased when something they want is above/below them, and reduced when they go up/down in a lift... however, the creatures in C2 don't seem to be able to learn from this, or use this information in any really functional way (though it MIGHT have an influence on whether the action they try is to pull the lift rather than push it, or vice versa, once they randomly wander into one and randomly decide to use it)... They just can't associate using the lift directly with getting what they want, and creatures are too stupid to understand indirect action chains. All these chemicals do is kind of move up the priority of using a lift in its possible decisions, but they don't allow the creature to associate the lift with food it wants, for example, and if it is trying to fulfill a drive and sees no obvious way to do it, it will just start trying random stuff. Upatrophin and downatophin seem to just kind of help the creature's random decision process come to the idea of pulling (or pushing) the lift once they get to it.

C3 solves this by not letting them worry about cause and effect... once they have a drive like this, it suppresses their original desire, suggests actions to them so they move towards their goal, using elevators or doors as necessary, then puts back their original desire. The two chemicals still exist in C3, but since C3 creatures have proper up/down drives, and instincts and stimuli that work with them, the chemicals just detect walking up/downhill and regulate their gait.

Turnase is used in C1/C2 for fight or flight, and in wallbonking/anti-falling response, and is just supposed to tell the creature to turn around (telling them to go left if they were traveling right, or right if they were traveling left). There was originally some kind of timing issue with this in C2, where creatures could wallbonk repeatedly because it remained in their systems for just long enough that the creature turned around twice, but I think later genomes took care of the problem for the most part.

It's no longer necessary in C3 because the creatures' more complex brains now assign temporary learning to the direction they are walking at any moment, so if they are walking left and not liking it (hitting a wall, feeling an increase in a drive, etc), they will get a feeling that direction is bad and turn around on their own, and not want to go back that way for a little while.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  6/21/2014

21) I believe normal C3 and DS norns are to a certain extent. The 3rd party CFE breeds definitely.

22) When a norn says "why", it's about to tell you why it's doing something.
In practice it's akin to C3/DS's "express" in that it's always followed by telling you it's feelings.
For example "Alice why" "Alice very scared."


 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/22/2014

I think that C1 norns get a big jolt of NFP decrease from being Hand-raised, rather than left as wolflings, and Slave has shown that it's possible for norns to become generally Hand-phobic, so I think it's possible for norns to associate the Hand with tickles or smacks - although part of that depends on whether you prefer the carrot or the stick.

My TCR Norns
 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  6/22/2014

^ Indeed, but I don't think that actually effected whether or not creatures listened to the hand.
 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/22/2014

It's hard to tell whether it's significant, but I feel like it's easier to get norns to listen to me when I've raised them by hand, rather than let them run feral or wolfling - they know that there will be slaps or tickles either way, but with wolfling norns, it's almost like... 'so who do you think you are?'

My TCR Norns
 
Jessica

Jessica


 visit Jessica's website: Discover Albia
  6/22/2014

My Creatures 1 Norns (and Grendels) will misbehave and ignore me completely from time to time, but I agree that hand-raising them seems to make some sort of difference. I often tickle a Norn for looking at the hand, so when I pop on screen, it seems like the hand is just a little more interesting. I'm not sure if it helps, but I also use the hand as a tool to separate Norns: I'll say something like "get Jessica" (I use my name in place of the standard "hand" word), and that usually breaks a group up enough so I can kidnap the leader or straggler via a lift. Then I bring some food, toys, and quiet time to said Norn. It's often a pain to do when they're all acting up, yet over time I've found that they tend to respond more readily.

If I slap a Norn too much in a short period of time, he or she almost always starts running away from the hand. Like Malkin said with Slave's case, there is a very obvious negative reaction C1 Norns can have in response to the mere presence of the hand. I haven't had a wolfling run in C1 in ages, though, so perhaps it's something that can be explored in more detail!


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