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The Shee society, a dystopia? | |
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Hebi

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7/12/2012 | |
Our knowledge of the Shee is limited to a Shee-friendly description or the testimony of the Lone Shee. At first, it seems that the Shee society is depicted as somewhat perfect or at least a scientific ideal.
The Shee are depicted as an intelligent yet naive species which, though irresponsible, is capable of brilliant things and open to knowledge. They seem to have a high potential, are capable of creating genetically engineered lifeforms, machines that are partially alive and were willing to explore the universe to settle in a better world no matter how long it took or what they might get in the end.
The Shee society is a mixed between the Absent-minded professor archetype and a stereotypically old-fashioned Britishman. As we know, the name Albia refers to the so-called "Perfidious Albion" (England) but also to "Alba" (Scotland in Gaelic), plus they have a definite love for tea and biscuits as well as a stereotypical Victorian attitude toward sex (of course, the British aren't like that at all, but the stereotype still exists) which is why they invented kisspopping.
For these reasons, their society, at first, does not seem to be based on ethics but rather on science. Now, some people might say that science without ethics is nothing, but this is not what the debate is about. Stereotypically, scientific minds are less likely to think about ethics than others due to their need for knowledge and intellectual stimulation. Genetical engineering, biotechnology, colonisation of new worlds: the Shee society is obviously driven by exploration in most fields except for ethics and spirituality. We have yet to hear about a philosopher or a potential religion on Albia.
This is probably why they do not see any harm in creating new lifeforms for slavery. Grendels, Ettins and Norns were all experiments made for utilitary means rather than knowledge only. The Shee aren't just interested in getting new knowledge, they are, as Humans are, interested in making their life easier and controling their environment, thus they created slaves. Contrary to what we may have thought at first by describing the Shee archetype, they are not purely driven by their thirst for knowledge, they are driven by a common laziness when it comes to secondary needs and jobs. They clearly aren't as naive as one may think they are, or at least, not innocent.
I would argue that they aren't amoral creatures either, they seem to have some kind of ethics which isn't purely based on science or logic considering their aversion for openly sexual acts (though they do not seem to mind inbreeding and polygamy among their creations, we could easily say that it was easier for them to create haploid lifeforms as they needed a stable population and probably started with "Adam" and "Eve". Plus, polyamoury could easily be a lifestyle for them and a normal mode of reproduction, they do not need to follow the human emotional and sexual norms to be a sentient or moral species, it is subjective) but moreso for their aversion of reptilian lifeforms and more or less official laws concerning experiments.
We know the Banshee for being outcast among the Shee, they are implied to be violent or monsters... yet, this story has only been told for the Shee point of view. For all we know, the Banshee have been banned for doing different kinds of experiments than those allowed by the common doctrine and for liking reptilian lifeforms (Grendels).
While Grendels are being ostracized for being violent and carrying diseases, we know for a fact that Norns can also be terribly violent and that Grendels are being raised in dangerous ecosystems (full of bacterias, unwelcoming, etc.) which would easily make any species become violent to adapt and justify the "carrying disease" myth. Many players raise Grendels happily without a problem no matter their violent nature. It should be noted that while the Hardman display the same violent temperament (argually, they are even worse), they haven't been truly ostracised by the Lone Shee who collected their DNA (though, arguably, the Lone Shee truly is a naive Shee driven by knowledge). Additionally, the Ettins are seen positively even though they are depicted as rather stupid while they also tend to live in unwelcoming areas and have an annying kleptomanic tendency that surely created problems to the Shee.
Now, perhaps the Shee were closer to mammals (note that we can't state that any Albian lifeform is truly mammalian, especially not norns or ettins since they lay eggs) than they were to reptilians which may justify their aversion for scally things and preference for furry things ("cute" but this still doesn't really justify logically their prejudice or the reason why the Banshee are depicted like evil figures.
Speaking about evil, the Shee are logically seens as deity by their creations, but they also seemed to have either a huge ego or some kind of deity themselves considering the way their statues looked (especially in Creatures 2, this game give us a good representation of a Shee idol, almost cruel or terrifying giant in a room filled with what could be presents).
The opposition between the Banshee and the Shee doesn't seem to make much sense either. The Banshee's only fault, apart from liking Grendels, is to be "more materialistic" than the Shee, though we have no evidence of this fact in the games or mythology. Their love for gadget is said to be unnatural for most Shee, though we know for a fact that the Lone Shee was still interested in them (as well as in genetics) and that the Shee society created dozens of machines and gadgets. One may argued that it was out of necessity, but the Shee archetype started out as the engineer (in general) rather than the genetician. Plus, the Banshee's interest in gadgets and machine may seem materialistic, but it opposed to the Shee's interest in creating slaves. What the Shee do with slaves, the Banshee might do with machines. Basically, the Shee doctrine consider it more ethical or natural to use lifeform to serve them rather than technology.
(Now, we could also note that Grendels, Ettins and Norns are all sentient creatures capable of speech and will, they weren't truly engineered to become slaves and the games pretty much show that they followed orders out of fear and admiration for their god-like figures rather than because they were programmed to do so. The Shee have never created slaves, they have created lifeforms that are halfway between "Shee" and "Pets", intelligent enough to work, survive and comprehend orders but not enough to be able to compete with the Shee or be on an equal footing.)
It seems obvious to me that the conflict between the Shee and the Banshee is purely ideological rather than truly based on the typical opposition of a good and evil lifeforme.
The Shee society seems to have elvoved from a science-based to religion-based. The Shee share the belief that life is natural, therefore creating life is the natural way to control their environment, improve their life and create, which is why most of their machines and technologies are life-based. Their belief lead them to reject anything that isn't lifebased such as gadgets or non-bio machines. The Banshee, however, share the belief that the doctrine is wrong and that non-life based technology should be explored and experimented on to improve life, as well as that the Grendels were an interesting experiment that shouldn't be left aside and has some potential. Of course, this lead them to create the terrible Banshee Grendels, but I wouldn't say this is all because the Banshee are violent, I think this is mostly because the Shee and Banshee live some kind of ideological war leading to extreme behaviours.
For these reasons, I think the Shee society isn't as nice and naive as it has been depicted. They probably aren't even that irresponsible but were caught in a war between to main ideologies because their society had become authoritarian throughout the years. The Lone Shee would be a different kind of outcast, being the archetypal Shee before society went wrong.
Ooooooooooweeeeeeeeeeoooooooooo |

GrayDragonEmily
   

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7/12/2012 | |
As much as I like the Shee, I agree. Their treatment of Grendels, the Banshee, and those interested in gadgets in particular don't exactly sit well with me. I also made up a Shee character that left his own kind for those reasons. Most likely because I love reptiles and mechanical things, and I don't see why Norns are any better than Grendels. *hugs a Grendel and a Gaius*
-GrayDragonEmily |
 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

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7/12/2012 | |
I've been thinking along the same lines for a long time. Partly, anyways.
I don't think the Banshee were demonized much. Or maybe the shunning and other garbage they were subjected to by their piers transformed them into what the Shee already believed them to be. Because out of what little we do know about the Banshee, some of it does seem pretty horrific. Mounting Fallow Norn heads as trophies, at least, doesn't leave much open to misinterpretation. 
What we observe in-game has never been 100% compatible with written canon, eg. the C2 Grendels were supposed to be vicious but instead they ended up following Norns around like lost puppies. But I have no doubt that the Shee were biased, and I definitely wouldn't say they were all "good". There's plenty of room for fridge horror if you look hard enough, including the implications behind the fact that they gengineered themselves to have better vision.
Given that, I'm tempted to think that the Banshee's gene-splicing themselves with Grendels was mostly horrific to the Shee because it involved Grendels... who knows what they might have considered acceptable. Comparing the C4 Shee with the C2 Hebe Norn, or C1 Banana Norn, one might almost wonder if Norns have a little bit of Shee DNA in there somewhere...
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Moe
  

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7/12/2012 | |
I enjoyed the discourse. It should also be noted that Steve Grand's original design for Shee made them out to be just one of the four species that evolved on Albia (Norns, Ettins, and Grendels being the other three, obviously).
Although the CL Canon adopted the idea of the Shee creating all others, most of what we have from that canon is written in the form of Shee literature. The whole mythology could be corrupt (history is written by the literate, in this case). They might have performed experiments on the other species, even altered their evolution, but aside from their own accounts, we don't know for sure that they genetically engineered any of the other species.
And the harlequin Norns were just sadistic. |

Hebi

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7/13/2012 | |
Moe
In game, there are also inconsistencies concerning their physical appearance and Albia in general if I am not mistaken. I really like this idea that the canon story we know has been corrupted.
Ooooooooooweeeeeeeeeeoooooooooo |
 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

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7/13/2012 | |
I completely forgot about that, Moe.
I'm curious as to where in the history of Creatures development it came from. Really early, along the lines of the references to Jormungand or the world-journey, or was it from more recent material? I know I read it once too but can't figure out where.
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Moe
  

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7/13/2012 | |
Hebi,
Oh yes, the descriptions of the world itself are terribly, terribly inconsistent, and not just superficially. There isn't even supposed to be a moon, according to Steve, but there clearly was on in C1. Steve's argument is that an ellipsoidal planet couldn't support a moon, but I theorize that a sufficiently-sized, rapidly revolving planetoid could have actually assisted in the development of such a funny shaped planet.
Planets do bulge naturally from centrifugal force, but if a large moon were also exerting gravitational forces along an equatorial path, it could enhance the bulge. Now what this says for planetary stability...Steve may still have something there, but I like to believe that such a moon would stabilize the rotation.
However, due to where the moon would be in relation to the player camera, we shouldn't be able to see the moon (it would be directly overhead), yet in C1, we did. The rotational position necessary for it to be seen would cause huge instability for Albia, which probably accounts for Albia's post C1 eruption, and why we don't see the moon in C2 (when the planet's bulge and rotation shifted to align the equator with the moon). It also explains the stark difference in geographic layout between C1 and C2, that can't be accounted for by volcano eruption alone.
But this is getting away from the Shee society...
And yes, Ghosthande, I last recall seeing it in Steve's pre-production notes. The old stories of mythology and world journeys. |

sam999
  

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7/14/2012 | |
My three theories:
1. Shee started out smart in a human-like fashion, GMed themselves into their present idiot-savant state.... ....on purpose.
Think about this. What would the real world be like if everyone had shee-type biotechnology? Not a very nice place due to all the people settling wars or arguments with a virus, or hoard of superpredators. The shee had things like this, until at least one of them finally made a virus which altered DNA regarding brain growth in an attempt to stop the continuous warfare before the whole shee species killed itself.
The banshee modified themselves with grendel DNA in an attempt to become immune to said virus, in other words they are what normal shee would be like. Needless to say the new and nonviolent shee didn't like them very much.
2. Shee aren't born or hatched, they're built.
A shee is more-or-less a piece of biotechnology in itself due to the sheer amount of tinkering done. To reproduce, rather than the human fashion, or kiss-popping would work something like this:
1. Skeleton built, either metal or the same bio-coral stuff the shee used for the Ark's hull.
2. Cloned organs grafted in.
3. Brain, a composite of cloned brain tissue and computer chips is placed in skull, skull welded shut.
4. Muscle tissue and nano-scale hydraulics are added to work as muscles.
5. Skin of toughened rubber threaded with organic nerve endings grafted on.
6. A shee is born.
Basically, the birth of a shee differs only slightly from the of GAIA or gaius, or some other techno-geat.
3. The shee are Engineers.
The ideas all match. All of them!
Biotech using
Pale skin
People can't tell if they have humanlike faces or really weird noses
Biotech, Giger-ish starships
Very big compared to their creations.
Create other sapient species as pets/workers
Plus, just look at them!
Engineer
Shee
I like this idea, even if the Lone Shee stories become unintentionally weird if you think of him as looking like this.
And I suspect that the elephant-trunk nose of the bio-helmet is a straw going into a supply of tea....
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daz
 
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7/17/2012 | |
Your description of how they made the norns and why reminded me of these: http://hackedgadgets.com/wp-content/genpet_1.jpg
They're a neat art piece/prank. They breathed lightly mechanically, and there was loads of cool features, the gen pets site is worth a read. |
 Chaotic Spriter
mea
  

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7/20/2012 | |
Interesting discussion, I've had fun reading it & it reminded me of a story idea that had popped into my head either sometime last year, or several months ago.
Keeping this conversation in mind, I have a question for you.
What if somehow by accident, ettin, grendel & shee DNA got mixed up with the DNA of a norn that one of the shee was genetically modifying & when the egg they made with that DNA hatches they got a strange baby hybrid shee instead of the norn they were expecting. A baby shee with norn, ettin & grendel traits, how do you think the other Shee would react to it? |

Bifrost
  
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7/26/2012 | |
I love this discusion, and think that a great deal of valid and interesting points are being made. I'm not sure I understand or agree with everything, though, and so I figured I'd share a few of my own thoughts on the shee. Let me start with that thing that always sells the most: Sex.
Hebi, you state that the Shee show a sense of moral through their aversion for openly sexual acts, but do we truly know this? How do we know that kisspopping was invented by the shee as a way to avoid having their pets having sex in the open, and is not, in fact, the way that she and many other life forms mate and breed on Albia? Personally, I'm hesitant to viewing shee as having made an opinion about sexuality before I know more about how they mate.
Also, the shee dislike the banshee's fascination for grendels. Although I personally don't think the grendels are half bad at all, and would like to se a breed that is tons more aggressive and dangerous than any breed we've seen yet, I don't have any problems seeing why shee dislike the banshee's fascination and meddling with grendels and their genetics. The grendels were created by mistake when trying to come up with a breed of norns (right?) and proved far more vicious and dangerous than intended - violent and disease carrying. Grendels drove shee away. And here's a bunch of shee near worshiping this mistake, going so far that they change their own genetics to become more like the grendels, assuming the traits that other shee feared. I understand why the shee fear the banshee.
On the other side, I can understand the banshee as well. Something dangerous was created - something that threatened them and something they couldn't get rid of. So, what could they do? If you can't beat them, join them. By assuming the same strength as the grendels these shee could once again become the masters they used to be, and live in harmony with their creations. And they probably saw the other shee as weak and cowardous. And a conflict was born.
Any conflict that is defined as a battle between good and evil becomes shallow. In any story, unless both sides have reasons behind their actions, and one part is described as evil for evil's sake, I usually find the story dull.
As for how they create and treat their creatures, I don't think it's different from how we humans breed and treat many animals. Just look at pigs - bred and kept to be eaten, and rarey anything more. Cows to give us milk and meat, sheep for wool and meat, hens for eggs and meat, horses for work, dogs for guarding, shepherding, pulling sleds, rescuing people, hunting, fetching and companionship (and in some cases for meat). We breed animals to get certain qualities, and sometimes even treat them with hormones or even genetically modify them entirely to serve our purposes. We hunt and hang their heads on plaque as trophees, we hold cats for killing rodents, and we have sports hunts, and the list goes on. So how is having fallow norn heads on the walls as decoration truly that dark and evil? How is adapting one's own physique in order to cope with the threats of the world really that different from what we do with modern medicine?
It's described as rather black and white, because it's described through the eyes of one side, but when you look a bit deeper into it, the coin has two sides - at least, and what one hought to be black or white has a myriade of shades, hues and saturations. It's easy to draw conclusions when one sees things from one point of view, but if one truly attempts to see things from other sides, there's a lot more to be seen.
So, how about shee society, then? Personally I think the shee are just as naïve as they're made out to be, but perhaps in other ways than we might expect. (But seriously - how naïve are they actually made out to be?) I think they really were driven off by both grendels and banshee. But wether it was because th banshee truly drove them off, or they fled because they feared them, I can't say. I don't consider the shee society a dystopia at all, because the moement you start comparing the things they've done and do to human behaviour, you can find a lot of parallels, and in the end I think they're quite like us.
Tea, anyone? |

Arovovo

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9/17/2012 | |
Wow That' Deep |

TheAlbianBong


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10/23/2012 | |
2. Shee aren't born or hatched, they're built.
A shee is more-or-less a piece of biotechnology in itself due to the sheer amount of tinkering done. To reproduce, rather than the human fashion, or kiss-popping would work something like this:
1. Skeleton built, either metal or the same bio-coral stuff the shee used for the Ark's hull.
2. Cloned organs grafted in.
3. Brain, a composite of cloned brain tissue and computer chips is placed in skull, skull welded shut.
4. Muscle tissue and nano-scale hydraulics are added to work as muscles.
5. Skin of toughened rubber threaded with organic nerve endings grafted on.
6. A shee is born.
Mind blown. This is cool! |

Missmysterics
 
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12/4/2012 | |
Bifrost, it was said on official Creatures Websites that the Shee made creatures kisspop becuase they were prudish of how they themselves reproduced.
I tend to think of the shee vs Banshee issue as an argument over which makes the better pets that got seriously blown out of proportion due to judementalism and immaturity.
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