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 Patient Pirate ylukyun  Manager |
Well. Apparently, this just doesn't happen. Not talking about mutations either. First generation Desert Ettins and Jungle Grendels, standard or CFE, literally don't seem to be able to starve to death, at all, ever. I guess this was engineered into the genomes by CL, who wanted them to be obstacles rather than real in-depth life-forms. It seems to have been fixed in the Banshee genome(s). I keep running gene compare and inspecting genes, but I can't pinpoint exactly why. Has anyone made fixes for this? Looking at you, Grendel_Man, master geneticist who is currently online  As far as I can tell, people hardly even notice, though there is one topic on the wiki where it is attributed to a flaw in the CFE DC Ettin genome. (Not least by me, who neglected to run a genome comparison for six months.. ) Colons don't work in URLs here, so just navigate to the talk page, and you will see the conversation.Also, Hardman Norns can reach breeding age without any food, but they at least die shortly after that, and it seems like it would be easier to fix. Also, besides the point, but I wish the form would limit the amount of characters in the title field, to the amount I can actually post.. |
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 Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager  |
Upon reading this, I decided to conduct an experiment - I threw a generation 1 Jungle Grendel egg into the airlock and denied the resulting baby any food. The result? Almost 50 minutes later, the grendel is still alive. A norn would have kicked the bucket sometime around 30 minutes. I haven't done anything in the way of fixing this, mostly because I was unaware that this happened before I read this. I do plan on trying to find out why, however. The reason the problem doesn't exist with the banshee grendels is not because CL actually bothered to fix it, but because the banshee genome is based upon the hardman norn genome. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
I think I found out why. Ettins' bodies appear to actually emit energy, this gene didn't seem to be pregnant in the Magma genome I looked at. I have muted this gene and am waiting for the Ettin to die (hopefully.) Edit: Freudian slip? O_O Edit 2: Hmm, the Ettin is still alive after over an hour with no food. Must be something else. I figure there will be a few genes. |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
If it helps any, the problem most likely lies with the ATP/ADP system - in a norn, deprivation of nutrients leads to lack of ATP, which kills the norn. In the grendel I was testing, the ATP/ADP levels remained constant despite the fact that the grendel hadn't eaten anything its whole life (or at least, that was what the chemical grapher in C3 was telling me). Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
I've been looking at ATP and anything I could find relating to it, but I can't figure out what's going on yet. I will pay more attention to ADP though. (By the way, I was actually looking at a receptor earlier, not an emitter.) |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
I think I might have found some insight into what's going on. There are two glycogen receptors in most creatures, which are responsible for defining the max glycogen capacity of the liver catabolic and liver anabolic (according to the comments in the Genetics Kit, anyway). The genes are linked to a pair of reactions that look like this: 6 Glucose + 1 Nothing = 1 Glycogen + 1 nothing In norns, the threshold of the two glycogen receptors is set to .133, which is fairly low. In grendels and ettins, the threshold is set much higher for both genes. I think that these two genes aren't working properly, allowing the grendel/ettin to survive with an excess of glucose/glycogen, preventing it from starving. I've set the threshold for those two genes to the same value as norns, and hatched a grendel with the new genome. It remains to be seen if the grendel starves or not. Edit: It turns out first gens CAN starve to death - the unedited grendel I threw into the airlock finally kicked the bucket after an hour and 37 minutes. It's a long time to survive without food, especially where the standard grendel is concerned (they live for only 3 hours and 49 minutes unless edited/mutated to be otherwise), but they're not able to run on nothing their entire lifespan. Edit2: I think the answer lies not in the receptors or reactions, but in the intial concentraton genes. It appears that grendels are born with a higher concentration of glycogen than norns are. Because they have more glycogen to begin with, they take longer to starve if not given anything from the moment of birth. Then again, this is where grendels are concerned - I haven't looked at the ettins. I think it's probably a similar deal, though. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
Huh. I did notice that the non-CFE Grendels and Ettins died a bit earlier than their CFE counterparts (though not in a reasonable length of time), and wondered if it was starvation or something else. I guess it is starvation. Maybe there is something wrong with the CFE genomes after all. I'm still pretty sure I've had CFE DC Ettins survive their entire lifespan with no food, and die of old age. |
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 Malkin Manager |
It could be that the half-life of the nutrients is too long in all the genomes? My TCR Norns |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
In the half-life gene? All the nutrients are set to "extremely slow", they get depleted by other means. But I will keep looking at the receptors and reaction rates. |
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Malkin Manager |
A genome compare between CFE/DC CFE and the original genome may not be helpful in pinpointing why ettins don't seem to starve, as the behaviour occurs in all three genomes. My TCR Norns |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
I was looking at Norn genomes though, the half-lives of nutrients seem to be the same. |
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Malkin Manager |
Maybe it seems that ettins and grendels don't starve to death as much because they've got shorter lives in general? My TCR Norns |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
It does exacerbate it, but Grendels and Eettins can survive longer without food than most Norns - 1hr+ compared to about 30mins. |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
During an IQ test today, I had a frendel who died apparently of starvation at a little over 30 minutes. A gene compare between the normal grendel and frendel genomes seemed to point to the half-life gene...but it turns out the only edited thing in the half-life was Arousal Potential. This was confirmed by a frendel in the airlock, who remained alive over 40 minutes later. However, a Gendiff compare between the grendel and bruin genomes brought up something interesting: the half-life of Adipose Tissue in a Norn is only 88, while in a grendel it's 255. Maybe it was the half-life gene after all.... Edit: The half-life of adipose tissue does have something to do with it - I created a grendel whose half-life of adipose tissue was 0, and she died after 5 minutes of starvation. However, that's definitely not all of it - I created a norn with the same modification, and that died after only 3 minutes without food. There's something else that allows grendels/ettins to survive much longer without food than norns, but I haven't found just what that something is just yet. Edit2: It has nothing to with the glycogen receptors I mentioned earlier - when I set the receptors to the value they have in a norn, the grendel with a half-life of 0 for adipose tissue actually lasted longer - 7 minutes as opposed to 5. Edit3: I do believe it's a combination of the initial concentration of adipose tissue combined with the longer adipose tissue half-life. Grendels (at least) are born with more of it than norns are. This, coupled with the long half-life of adipose tissue, allows newborns to survive well over an hour without eating anything. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Malkin Manager |
So grendels and ettins just live off their baby fat a little longer than norns do? My TCR Norns |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
That, grendels and ettins are born with more of it than norns are, and the half-life of adipose tissue is ridiculously long (255 as opposed to 88 ), meaning that any excess adipose tissue stays in the creature's system until its body is ready for it. Yet, that's still not all of it - I tested a grendel with the half-life of adipose tissue set to 88 and born with the same amount of adipose tissue as a norn, and it still lasted 4 minutes longer than a norn would (a normal bruin norn dies after 32 minutes without food after birth, while the grendel died after 36 minutes). Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Malkin Manager |
"any excess adipose tissue stays in the creature's system until its body is ready for it" Haha, this reminds me of Doctor Who: "The fat just walks away"! XD I've got to wonder whether those 4 minutes of life are significant, though? Did you hatch a norn with the altered halflife of adipose and the same amount of adipose tissue? My TCR Norns |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
I didn't need to alter the norn's adipose tissue half-life/initial concentration - the default value those are in a norn were the altered values in the grendel. Yet, with both creatures having the exact same half-life of adipose tissue and beginning with the exact same amount of it, the grendel somehow lasted 4 minutes longer than the norn. Granted, I don't know if that's significant either, but I must know how anyway. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Malkin Manager |
It could just be natural variation - perhaps your grendel was a bit more sluggish than your norn and so used up its adipose tissue slower? The way to test this would be by repetition - could you please upload an altered grendel so that more people can test? My TCR Norns |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
I don't think it had to do with natural variation: the grendel was first gen and otherwise unaltered from the bog-standard grendel genome. I don't think it had anything to do with the environment, seeing as it was born and died in the airlock. Uploading an altered grendel sounds like a good idea, however. I'll probably do that. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Malkin Manager |
Little Labrat is doing very well for himself in my world - he's found the door out of the workshop and seems distressed he can't use it.  My TCR Norns |
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