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 Rha  |
Looking better! Oh a tip, always start with lower polygons and make the general face shapes and then start building up slowly. Not sure if you can in sculptris, tho.. I'll...need your emails to start adding people to Trello. Anyone interested let me know and I'll pm you for it! Edit: Thanks Papriko, I forgot about that : p I always liked the C1 images a lot, even the 3D norns were..ok. Those later 3D norns look really creepy tho haha ;_;  |
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 Narol |
@ Rha Thanks for signaling Niche, I had never heard about it and it looks very interesting ! I'm gonna give a try at once ! |
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 jcnorn |
I absolutely love Niche <3 Perhaps if you tried to give them teeth sticking? Sharp ones, to show they are 'dangerous' and 'feral'? Same size on the nornbreeds also helps with animations as you can keep the same skeleton to skin the breeds to, rather than keep making new skeletons for each breed. |
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 MalamuteKid |
Does anyone know if Chani, Don, Tomtschek, AquaShee, MNB or ElasticMuffin are still active in the community, lurk, or might be interested in something like this? Edit: I've just learned to use SketchFab to host 3D models, so if anyone wants to rotate those sketches around in 3D they can find them at this link. I currently have three folders: 1. Creatures_eggs (contains egg models) 2. Creatures_sentient (norns, grendels, ettins, shee, geats, etc) 3. Creatures_static (static/background models) Here are some specific links to models: - Mohawk Grendel head - Shee head - Evolved Kobold 1 - Evolved Kobold 2 As of now there isn't too much more (only 9 models hosted currently), but other models include those static models from the Unity metaroom demo and some ugly alien thing.. lol |
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Rha |
Hi guys, I've been sick these days but I did start up a Trello board, however I didn't think it through and before planning a project we should get together in a chat somewhere, talk about what we'd like to make and how to do it, what steps should be taken, what and where we can learn stuff... MalamuteKid, making these 3D models is a great idea to learn and get better at all this, I think everyone who wants to make 3d models should start experimenting a bit in their program of choice. However, in a project we should limit to a few programs of choice so one person can open and edit the work of another if needed. OK getting ahead of myself again, we should all get in a chat, I think. |
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 Tea Queen Laura  |
You're all very welcome to use CC Chat, if you wish.  |
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Rha |
Thanks Laura, I think that would be best actually but the trick would be getting online around the same time : p I only have a few hours per day I might be able to log in, for example. |
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Tea Queen Laura |
Hm... Maybe you guys can all arrange a time or something! We're mostly an idling bunch in there, so we wouldn't disturb your discussion if you did decide to. |
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Rha |
Well, I should have time from 17:00 to 20:00 GMT+1 every evening, let's see what the others say. |
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 Lodestar Doringo |
Rha wrote: I should be pretty much alright with that, especially since the UK isn't too far from that time. I'm online most of the day, especially on weekends and holidays. |
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 Lurhstaap |
"Do keep in mind that the models need to be same in size and volume more or less to make sure the mixing of limbs of different species don't make it look like Frankenstein's monster. Also the coloring has to blend well." Oh, yeah, absolutely. What I was talking about were details rather than major body changes. The body size/shape for them all would be basically the same - the differences would be stuff like size and shape of ears and muzzle/face, tail, whether the feet are paws or more hooflike or clawlike, et cetera. And of course overall body color, maybe length of fur if we use such a degree of detail. Although I don't necessarily agree that color has to blend well, nor that looking like Frakenstein's monster is a problem. Actually IMO in the existing Creatures games that's precisely what is already the case - try breeding something with Chichi, Harlequin, and Bengal sprites. No color harmony there. Then splice it with a Grendel and an Ettin. Now that's Frankenstein's monster! XD Newer technology may make it easier for us to do genetic color differences rather than using the rather primitve overlay the existing games use, though. I'm not sure. If that's the case, then it'll be easier to make hybrids of different types look more like unified hybrids and not patchworks, at least in terms of color and markings. As far as times, I'm in California, but I don't have any scheduled obligations so I can just try to show up whenever is best for the group at large. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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MalamuteKid |
I'll try to figure out times that I'm available soon, but I am in the US East coast (GMT -5 but GMT -4 with daylight savings).. Also regarding the models and textures- What if we could set up a character customization system that became something like Poser with its morphs? It's been a while since I've messed with Poser models or DAZ Studio, but with it humanoid, rigged models have morphs that can be tween'd with numerical values (e.g. male Caucasoid human can have morphs applied to appear Asian). What if we were able to make a base albianoid mesh with Poser-esque morphs that determined phenotypes (which would then be determined by the creatures' genes)? Mesh based morphs could really include anything.. Players could also create new breeds by selecting for certain phenotypes, even cross-species splices could have mixes of morphs, etc.. |
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Lurhstaap |
I think that's an excellent idea, and it would also allow for mutations and breeding to be potentially more visible and realistic. You could have a gene (and thus a mutation) that actually made the ears longer or shorter, say. That does increase the complexity level a lot though and we have to consider efficiency and processing power and all that. But computers are getting beefy to a degree that was unimaginable when I was in my teens, so especially given this is going to be a project measured in years without question, we have a little bit of leeway in that regard since processors are very likely to get better while we're still working. Still, we should do our best to produce a steamlined product that doesn't rely on having the latest hardware available at the time of release, just for user friendliness. (And because, let's be honest, I doubt any of us is well-moneyed enough to be so extravagant with our own machines so consistently - we have to be able to run it ourselves after all!) Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Rha |
I do like that idea, yes. I imagine at first making something like the Spore creature creator they gave for free way before launching the game, remember? I believe while making a game it should always run well on the oldest computer of any of the devs(on lowest settings at least), though of course if your oldest pc is one bought in a supermarket 8 years ago, well.. |
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Lurhstaap |
Yes, there definitely has to be a compromise on that point. On the one hand, we don't want people to have to have bleeding-edge hardware to even touch the game, but at the same time, we should definitely consider taking advantage of whatever options and features are available to us if they will enhance the game enough to be worth the processing cost. I'm glad you mentioned Spore, too, because I had thought Spore was going to be the next generation Creatures, and I was VERY disappointed with how it was actually done (on multiple levels, not the least being bugginess). I feel like we have an opportunity here to do what Spore was trying to do to some degree, and to do it RIGHT. It'd be Creatures instead of Spore of course but I think you get what I mean by that? Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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jcnorn |
So basically you want to make models off different bodyparts and then somehow make them connect to certain parts of the main skeleton for animations? |
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 Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
This is really old, but does anybody remember that unofficial creatures game that Archdragon made? It was never finished unfortunately but a version of it was released eventually, but without any norns. |
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Rha |
Yeah, Spore was dissapointing in many ways but I still sometimes install it again and make a bunch of creatures, I really like that builder a lot. It's all visual tho, there aren't any genes or diseases like in creatures it's just making your monster look cool. I saw a game they're making like Spore but more complex, I forgot the name tho and they only have the cell stage for download for now. Jcnorn yes that's what this type of game sometimes does, they're stitched together bodyparts in 3D just like the 2D norns. Depending on genes you get x percentage of this or that body part... I guess also adding a random factor is a must. The textures/shaders could be randomized too because you can mix em but I don't know if the meshes could be literally mixed a lot and if something coherent would come out of that, probably to some degree yes (like Malamutekid said) I'm actually just guessing tho I have no idea. What I do know is that the more we can recicle the animations/skeleton the better. C-Rex, I haven't heard about that game, hopefully someone can tell us. |
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Lurhstaap |
I never saw it, C-Rex, but I know what you're talking about. It was more of a demo for a game than an actual game, but it could also be viewed as a proof of concept in some ways, at least for the actual world and environs as opposed to the creatures themselves. We also need to prepare ourselves for the fact that we may need to change some names. In our hearts we'll know what we're doing, but if whomever currently owns the Creatures IP decides to get catty about it, we may have to settle for renaming a bunch of stuff. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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 Moe |
As for IP issues... You make a game with the backbone of Creatures gameplay and mechanics, call it something like "Critters", and call the creatures "Gorgs", "Ekers" and "Bandos" or something random, and design them accordingly. Give them a new fake world, etc. Do it well, make it a solid game, and release. Then you let modders add in Norns, Ettins, Grendels, Albia, etc. There's virtually no way for IP issues when it comes to modding. You still get your Creatures game, you just have to release the "Creatures" content free after-the-fact. People have been doing it with Star Trek in various games for years. See "Sins of a Solar Empire: Armada 3" for a spectacular example. |
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Lurhstaap |
Well, yes - that's essentially what I was saying we'd have to do. It certainly works, but I just wanted to warn people that we probably WILL have to do that and not be able to call the game "Creatures" or the creatures "Norns" and such. I do think we'd benefit from putting a lot of effort into coming up with three NEW species, equivalent to Norns, Grendels, and Ettins but visibly different. Perhaps the "new" Norn is less anthropomorphic, with a more pronounced muzzle and generally more animalistic, like the C1 Norns tended to be. Other than being upright and having humanlike hair on the females sometimes (which drove me SO NUTS omg) they looked very animalistic. Between C1 and C3/DS the Norn designs in particular got slightly more humanized and much more cartoonified. The Grendel equivalent could be more distinctly dragonlike or dinosaurish or even lizardlike, with a much less orcish pig-nosed face. The Ettin equivalent could have actual facial features rather than just looking like a live Muppet. Or something. I dunno. Point is, we should definitely invest a good deal of effort in making more original content to draw people, while still making it very easy to make actual Norns, Grendels and Ettins as user content later on. One of the major strengths of Creatures, after all, is being so very user-customizable. All we have to do is keep that as a major goal for our own work and we'll reap the same benefits. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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jcnorn |
Perhaps now would be a good time, instead of sculpting 3d models, to go back to basics and do some concept arting then? To get some guidelines out there for the artstyle to aim for and how the creatures and worlds should look once the 3d-building starts? |
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Rha |
I didn't really say anything about this issue before I think but yeah I think it's best we just use creatures as inspiration but make original content, not only to avoid IP issues but it's generally a bit of a d* move to blatantly copy existing stuff..at least I wouldn't feel too comfortable with it. |
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Lurhstaap |
I took the modeling as being more practice and inspiration - a 3D form of concept art, TBH. No reason concept art has to be 2D. With that said, concept art is one of the ways I can be very helpful to the project. I know what my ideas are for the three main species, or at least two of them - anyone else want to have some input before I start sketching? Not that anything I do now is remotely close to final, of course, but I want to incorporate more than my own ideas from the beginning since this is a group effort. I don't think it's necessarily a d* move; it depends on context for me. If Creatures Labs or Gameworks or any of the companies even remotely connected to it by anything other than buying the rights to it were still in any way active or alive, then yes, it would matter to me on an ethical level. Or if there were any sign whatsoever that Grand himself still gives a darn about it. But he's clearly 100% committed to Grandroids at this point and the only companies who've done anything more with Creatures than own its rights are dead, or no longer own/have legal use of said rights (Fishing Cactus). So -ethically- speaking I feel absolutely nothing is wrong with it, any more than I'd feel ethically bad about doing fanart or fanfiction, especially since in both cases full credit is given to the original. But that's just me. Either way it's safer ground legally to do as Moe described. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Rha |
Concept art doesn't need to be 2D, no, but you'll need accurate views of the characters to model in 3D. Well I understand the appeal of fanart but I meant it more in a way like, working on a fanart for years..I mean we have Black Mesa, great mod n all but in the end they needed to make it for pay and I mean they worked hard on it they deserve to be paid on one hand (also Valve supports them so lol) but it's...odd... Oh and as a floof enthousiast I have to throw in avian and non avian dinosaurs as suggested inspiration for a breed : 3 |
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 SpaceShipRat |
I think we might have more chances with an RPG, or a visual novel, something more like a story about norns. It seems like (besides horribly hard to make), anything else would be a step away from what Creatures is meant to be, while with a story, you can simply portray norns as partially intelligent. |
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Rha |
I wouldn't deviate from the life sim genre, it's what makes the creatures games appealing, not the bit of lore it has... I mean, what I like about the idea of making something creatures inspired is that there are almost no life sim games being made anymore and it's such a great genre. Anyway, that's just my opinion but I'd like to see more people voice theirs on this thread, oh and in the end only a few said a time to go on the chat..ummmmm I should be available for a bit this afternoon so I'll get on there now. |
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 Norn_master |
Realistically the fans gotta keep the game going. New games, mods. Heck, I would take a Windows version of the PS1 games. I approve of this and fan games!  It’s a me! Dvader0086 from the’a Discord! |
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Lurhstaap |
SpaceShipRat, what would the point of that be? It seems to me that your suggestion takes us way further away from the spirit of a Creatures game than what we've been discussing, which would be essentially a fan-made Creatures 4 in everything but name (due to legal issues as covered previously). Absolutely it's a huge pile of work, we all know that, but it's also not like we're starting from scratch. We have the existing engines and programs to guide us in development. If we wanted to write a story about Norns, we'd write a story, in short. People already do that. Besides, what exactly would an RPG even be like other than just a clone of all the other RPGs out there? And what do you mean by 'chances'? Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Tea Queen Laura |
Lurhstaap, could you tone it down just a little, please? Everyone's entitled to their view, of course, but yours is coming across a bit aggressively. |
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Lurhstaap |
I apologize - it wasn't intended that way. I'm not entirely sure how to fix it, though. Can you be a little more specific about why it seems aggressive? Communication is not always my strong suit.  Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Tea Queen Laura |
Don't worry about fixing it now, but so long as you're aware. Some of your phrasing seemed a bit confrontational, that's all ("What would the point of that be?", "Besides, what exactly would...", "If we wanted to write a story about Norns, we'd write a story", for example). Just trying to keep it peaceful around here! |
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SpaceShipRat |
@Luhrstaap: sorry if I sounded dismissive, I swear I was trying not to be a bummer or too discouraging, some of the models and stuff shown here are really lovely. To better explain my thoughts, I just that making a 3d "life sim" game without an equally complex neural and chemical network as the original games wouldn't be authentic. But maybe I am underestimating the knowledge of neuroscience of this community, afterall many threads on the inner workings of Creatures in here leave me in the dust. In any case it would be a year-spanning project, and I just wanted to throw in there a simple idea that I had, that I believe with the talent in the community we could blaze through. I absolutely get it if people couldn't care less about the genre, but I have heard people say before that they didn't care about Grandroids because "it's not creatures and it doesn't have the same atmosphere", so I figured there was a chance some people might be interested in a game that's just about the atmosphere of the Ark, or Albia. EDIT: didn't mean to hijack the thread either, this is just to explain what I meant, and the last I'm gonna say here about it. |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
Completely ignoring any kind of discussion before this, how about Living Code? It is about basic amoeba-like cells which have a snippet of code in place of DNA. The code can change by adding/removing lines on it's own or changing certain numeric values, to have it's own form of "mutation" and leading to evolution of some sorts. Perhaps pieces of it's source can be recycled. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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Rha |
@SpaceShipRat That's quite alright, I also don't think Lurhstaap meant it that harshly. I was writing something similar to their comment before changing it to what it's now because I didn't understand why someone would want a creatures RPG, but then again I don't like most RPG games so that's a personal preference. What I really don't want is for people to get discouraged to voice their opinions on this.. @Papriko That sounds really helpful actually, but like I said the other day I don't know about code so someone else should take a look at it. Gonna go on the chat again let's see if some others join..? |
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