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 MalamuteKid   |
Hi everyone, I've been a huge fan of the Creatures series since I was in 1st grade or so (I'm 23 now lol), and I've always been a huge fan of the Creatures community, metaroom/breed development, genetics, etc. Unfortunately the last time that I was active on CC/JRChat I was a little kid hardly worthy of existence (All apologies to any of you Creatures veterans that I annoyed years ago). I still grew up admiring the creative works of everyone, especially those of Moe, iggdrasil, GameFreak, and Rascii (of course). ..Sorry about the brief rant, I'll address the subject line now! Has anyone considered collaborating for a fan game utilizing modern (and free) game engines such as Unity or Unreal Engine? The last project that I was familiar with was Eden, but that encountered development delays if I recall.. 2016 seems to be an extremely optimistic year for game development, especially on a hobbyist/indie scale. With free game engines available, logic editors, and a plethora of widely-available graphics platforms I wonder how far the community could go.. It would be incredible if some sort of community-driven life simulator could be developed. Perhaps not necessarily "Creatures" in name, considering Fishing Cactus's legal perspective and possible hauntings by the ghost of Gameware Development. This was just for fun, but I started making a small metaroom in Unity the other day. This isn't compatible with any creatures engine (I can't code yet :/ ), but it's just kind of for fun and has been created with somewhat minimal effort. I know that the community is filled with talented artists that would be capable of great things if they toyed around with these 3D programs! Link to Imgur Album with multiple images Download the room (exe) & take a stroll (nothing too exciting) - 125 MB Click here to see a screenshot! Edit 3/17/2016: I've just learned to use SketchFab to host 3D models, so if anyone wants to rotate those sketches around in 3D they can find them at this link. I currently have three folders: 1. Creatures_eggs (contains egg models) 2. Creatures_sentient (norns, grendels, ettins, shee, geats, etc) 3. Creatures_static (static/background models) Here are some specific links to models: - Mohawk Grendel head - Shee head - Evolved Kobold 1 - Evolved Kobold 2 As of now there isn't too much more (only 9 models hosted currently), but other models include those static models from the Unity metaroom demo and some ugly alien thing.. lol |
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 saintrowfan2 |
Looks Sweet  |
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 Lurhstaap  |
I'm just taking a stab at learning Lightwave and I don't know any useful programming abilities, so I probably wouldn't be able to help much except on the design/concept side. Which is important, but there's plenty of people who can do that sort of thing. With that said I'd love to collaborate on such a project once I have useful skills to contribute. I think that's the main problem though - more enthusiasm than skill or time to go around. Those of us with the enthusiasm and the time often lack the skill, and the ones with enthusiasm and skill lack time, and the ones with skill and time lack interest. It's a perennial problem in indie game development, or really any indie collective creative endeavor. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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 Allekha |
My concern with a new alife sim wouldn't be with the graphics - this community does have some amazing artists - but with the brain and genetics side. As somebody programming my own alife sim (for research purposes), creating all of that from scratch is difficult, especially if you wanted to do anything at least as complicated than Creatures. Does Unity, etc, even have a neural network package (<- I know nothing about these engines, so sorry if that's the wrong terminology here), and if so, is it easily adapted for reinforcement learning, let alone the kind of learning that Creatures uses? If you were setting your sights a bit lower, however, something interesting could still be doable - some great alife programs got interesting emergent behavior from simple rules, without even having learning. That aside, I do like the look of the environment you built. |
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 GimmeCat |
Steve is building Grandroids in Unity. I don't recall him mentioning the existence of any such thing as that, Allekha. Not to say it might not exist, though-- he preferred to build everything from scratch due to the unique biochemical complexity he's going for. I'm sure much simpler AI packages must exist for general game development, but that's a bit different to what Creatures aspires to be. I agree with you, someone would probably have to create it from scratch. In projects like this, the art is the easy part and there's always tens of people willing to contribute concepts and models... the other 75% is a lot harder to find. |
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Lurhstaap |
I did mention programming as well. :p Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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 jcnorn |
Unreal and Unity is only 'free' too. What would be your plans for this game if it was made? To sell it? You're only allowed to make a certain amount for the game you made in these engines, after that you have to purchase licenses. I don't know about Unreal, where the cap is. But I know there is a cap for Unity from when I worked with it before. It also used to be that some functions aren't available to you until you purchase a license. They might've changed that though. But when I worked in it, Unity Free was more of a Unity Light-version and it was often 'Once we buy the license, I can work on this part'-talks in the meetings. I believe Unity utilizes C# in programming language, so would need to find someone with knowledge in that first. The graphics and designers aren't hard to come by in this community  |
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 Rha |
Yeah, I've definitely thought about it and mentioned it before. I think it's a cool idea, if it's just for fan purposes and never to sell if it's creatures related. I'm 'familair' with unity but definitely prefer UE4 over it because I need visual programming since I never studied 'real' programming. Also to consider with unity: a lot of things one would like to do and seem basic just aren't included and you'd need to buy plugins...UE4 sometimes isn't too well documented either so I guess each have their pros and cons, but I AM biased towards UE so heh.. I could definitely help out with setting up stuff in blueprints and concept art, modeling in low and/or high, texturing rigging and animating. Looks like a good start that metaroom. edit: I'm sure there most be quite a few good programmers in this community tho?? Oh also, I work in the videogames industry and could help figuring out how we'd go about planning things and distributing work. That said, I work so I wouldn't have much free time..  |
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 Norngirl |
This I remember way back someone (forgive me if I can't recall who it was,I have my guesses on TheArch but then again I do not think he was the one) ah anyhow- someone did actualy a Creatures 3D demo/test once - alltought it had no Norns,but it let you navigate a tiny island and pick up cheese with the hand - I tried google it,but I can't find it,I know it existed thought,as I tested it once as it was free to try ,but as said,that was years ago,perhaps someone else remember it too. This sound like a interessting project, no clue how far this will go - but it would be interessting to see what it will end up. I think the screenshoots looks cool! I only think the eggs look a bit too oblong and the grendelegg(?) look a bit stoney,could perhaps have a bit more of a golden tint maybe? I like the magma like (Norn ?) egg,looks cool :3 |
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MalamuteKid |
Lurhstaap wrote: Allekha wrote: jcnorn wrote: Rha wrote: Unfortunately my computer skills are somewhat limited- mostly in coding. I'm decent in Photoshop, still-learning with 3D software, and my actual background is in biology, which might help with planning out the biochemical pathways in a simulated creature. Because I'm incompetent in creating a full game such as this, I probably should not be the one to spearhead a project such as this. Graphics are time consuming, but coding is the most difficult part. If such as project like this happens, I will do everything that I can to contribute. I'll also keep learning about using tools such as Unity, Unreal, and their logic editors. This is a huge stretch (but so is this entire post), but could it be feasible to run the Docking Station or Eden engine in parallel to a Unity client so that the graphics of the game were represented in Unity? I might have worded that poorly. Could Docking Station's code/simulated biochemistry be implemented in a modern engine? |
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MalamuteKid |
Norngirl wrote: Woah that sounds awesome!!! If you ever stumble across a link/mirror to that project, do you think that you could drop a link in this thread? I definitely made the eggs more oblong than they are in the previous games.. I probably made them far too oblong lol. I had a hard time imagining an oval shape going through a norn's pelvic girdle. I could fix the egg shape pretty easily though! |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
That's actually kind of interesting... Some kind of polling of a world's data from a running DS engine, and then representing it all using models. You'd have to get pretty deep into the architecture even then though, things like looking in genetics to see what breed slot every sprite for every part of each creature is, looking at the world information on the creatures positions, ages, facings, limb positions, etc... It seems like it might be less time consuming to just make a new (possibly even better) engine than to try and reverse engineer all of that. It does sound interesting though, I wish I had time to work on this, but my job requires all my programming time and this would be a huge project I'm not at all confident I could tackle even if I did... I was also really interested in the work on figuring out how to get something like the DS warp working again, and now that looks like it's stalled, I'd probably want to look into that first if I were to work on a project for the community. It seems more on the doable side for me as well. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
It is an interesting idea. I would love to contribute but although I have the time, I don't really have any useful skills to give ![:\](/images/smilies/confused.gif ":\") Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.  |
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MalamuteKid |
Dragoler wrote: I don't have many either, but we can all learn!!! There's never been a better time to hobby-develop games! |
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Rha |
Obviously you do have some skills, what you're shown is already looking better than a lot of 'indie devs' manage to make : p At any rate I don't think this should be a project where only people with much knowledge of x thing could work on, but something we could learn from while working on it. I must add, I haven't used UE4 in half a year, and I only have a year of gamemaking experience so don't think I'm great at anything quite yet ^^; but I am very motivated.. |
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Norngirl |
MalamuteKid wrote: I would love to - but yeah thats the thing,I was searching like crazy yesterday for the link or any kind of mention of it,but didn't find the link,hence why I hope someone here might remember it too. I will try a bit more - but I do remember it was just some kind of test and Im unsure if the person wanted to expand on it or it just was meant to demonstrate that creatures in 3D style was not impossible (way back before that Creatures online was mentioned,so it is very old) Ah that explains it :3 yeah Im sure you can do it - other then that,I think you done great so far,I haven't tested the download yet,but seeing the pictures it look cool and im interessted to read more about this project! |
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 Moe |
I'm intrigued by the idea and I remember the 3D Cheese moving game that Norngirl is talking about. I've all but given up on a "real" Creatures game and phrases like "for the mobile age" make me barf in my mouth a little. And Grandroids is so obsessed with biological and mental accuracy that it's moving at a snails pace and is more an experimental proof of concept than a game... However... I fully believe a project like this could be successful. With [or without] crowdfunding and the support of experienced developers this is NOT outside the realm of possibilities to achieve. Thousands of Indie games are coming out to re-invent old titles. "Spiritual successors" if you will. We wouldn't need to copy Creatures necessarily, and it could be monetized. I for one would jump at the chance to lend my graphical expertise to such a project, but I would first need proof of competent implementation of the AL (Artificial Life: Brain, Chemistry, etc). Making a pretty environmental sandbox of static plants and birds is fine, and not all too difficult, but until we can recreate the processes of the Creatures Engine's brains and biochemistry, it's all for naught. If anyone wants to show a proof of concept working AL implemented even rudimentary so as to mimic the workings of Creatures believably within a 3D engine, then I will consider lending them my full graphical expertise to see the project to completion. Just so we're clear, it's not voodoo or rocket science...it's not an easy task, the AL, but it's not ridiculously hard either. The principals are pretty easy to grasp for anyone who's ever played with the Genetics Kit, Biochemistry Kit, and Brain-In-A-Vat application(s). Norn Object looks at environment, takes measurements of variables, sees object, checks for neural associations to object and possible actions to satisfy deficits in it's "organs" and "chemistry" variables. It's all fairly straightforward, it just needs to be mapped out and reprogrammed in something like Unity, and hopefully in the process, improved upon. I firmly believe that with a combined community effort, our best geneticists, programmers, and graphical artists, we could do this. It's all a matter of leveraging our skills best and collaborating. That said... I'm not sure I would appreciate a fully 3D game as much as I would if Creatures was realized as a 3D sidescroller of sorts. Obviously not a true sidescroller of linear progression, but in implementation of the environment. Everything is still a cut-away, but 3D rendered and composited in a real-time 3D engine. Think parts of Sonic Generations. The world and all objects are 3D, but you're still looking at a cut-away and limited in Z-depth. I'd like to see this conversation keep going, and progress keep being made. I will be watching. |
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MalamuteKid |
Moe wrote: MOE!!! You were my graphics idol as a kid lol, I'm so glad to see that you're still on the forums!!! Also, sorry for trying to talk to you/annoying you on MSN messenger when I was like 10-11. I agree with pretty much everything in your post, especially the gag reflex induced by microtransaction mobile games that suck away the souls of game legacies. Creatures will always be my favorite series of all time because of its immense sense of wonder and science. Creating artificial biochemistry/AI would be the hardest part, and once I can get my coding up to anything useful I will try my best for this. My background is in biology, but I really regret not double-majoring in computer science! Either way, programming is something that all of us can learn with the plethora of online resources available today, and thus I have no excuses to my inadequacy. I would love to see the community come together even as the form of a think-tank of ideas, assets, and perhaps snippets of code/developments. Perhaps a subforum could be set up for 'Unnamed Community LifeSim Development' (with a better name, of course)? Regarding your Sonic Generations-style concept, I was thinking along those same lines while creating this post. 3D models with access to two dimensions would create something more true to the original series while also simplifying the programming/locomotion required. I think that what you're describing is the same as what we would see in games such as Super Smash Brothers or Kirby 64? Aand Norngirl, looks like I'll just have to recreate that one! Aand Rha let's do it!!! Edit: Also, the most promising artificial life sim that I've seen/played with in a while is Species: Artificial Life, Real Evolution. Last time that I used it it crashed on my machine, but wolfing runs eventually turned my procedural continents full of blobs into dinosaur warfare. I can't recommend this one enough! |
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Lurhstaap |
I'm very new to coding as well, but I am not new to game design nor to artificial life/genetics systems nor with other aspects of active game running and management, especially in terms of user base and financial stuff. I'm not saying I should spearhead the project, but I definitely have useful skills to contribute, especially if this thing becomes real and has any kind of online social component at all - even just forums and an associated website for fans. It is indeed a very good time for indie development and I've always been completely fascinated by artificial life. I'm trying to learn to program anyway - to contribute to this kind of project I'd even take some classes. Right now, at this moment, I can contribute game design experience and concept art. If the game is to be 3D I have learning to do in that direction as well, but I can certainly contribute anything that can be done in Photoshop or equivalent software. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Rha |
Yess, Moe described it very well. I also couldn't see the game as anything but the 2D look using actual 3D now, I mean that's what the creatures games at least seem to be, renders of 3D models used instead of classic 2D sprite art. Might be a bit soon to ask but does anyone around here have experience with sound FX and ambient music? Cute blabbering would be a plus too : p Ohhh I heard of Species but not in a positive way? I should check it out tho. |
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MalamuteKid |
Rha wrote: I have a couple of MIDI keyboards and guitars... lol... I'm not talented, but I'll see if I can come up with something one of these days lol |
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Lurhstaap |
It didn't occur to me when I posted last, but sound is another area I can help with. I'm no composer, but in terms of FX, I've always had a talent for that. When I was a kid I used to make my own little .WAV files with little "stories" cobbled together from other .WAVs plus added effects of my own when I couldn't find what I wanted. More usefully, in my high school/early college years I took a few years of film school. At the time I was expecting to go into filmmaking. So I'm familiar with Final Cut Pro, though I doubt we'll need that sort of software for this unless we want to do cinematics, but I also have some experience with sound creation and editing in the context of filmmaking, which transfers to game making pretty easily. The principles are very similar. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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 Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
I'm familiar with making music digitally. I've put some stuff on Soundcloud if anyone is interested. |
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 Lodestar Doringo |
I can use Blender to make 3D models and other renders, but I'm really trying to work on getting better at it, even though I am very experienced with the UI and I know how to do most things, it's mainly up to modelling experience for me now. I also have experience in coding, but it's only really Python that I know particularly well, (I have a grasp on a few other languages though) I'm still trying to learn C# however. Oh and I can also use GIMP, but I'm still learning how to properly use that. |
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MalamuteKid |
I just made some quick fugly sketches: Norn, Ettin, & Shee Fail grendel that became simian These prototypes were made rapidly with Sculptris (freeware), and I can tweak/refine/remake these so that they aren't so ugly lol |
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Lurhstaap |
They actually look pretty good. If it were up to me I'd want the Grendel and Norn to have a bit more of a muzzle, look more bestial than humanlike, but that's just a personal preference. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I think you should go with a less humanoid look. Maybe its just me, but I always found more humanoid looking Norns to be a bit creepy My thoughts would be a somewhat cat-like face for Norns, a turtle face for Ettins and a lizard face for Grendels. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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jcnorn |
This is what I always thought 3d norns would look like. Of course with different breed alternations Big ears that can flop if skinned right. Big innocent eyes that keep taking in the wonders of the world etc. |
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Rha |
Lurhstaap & MalamuteKid The music in these types of games is normally ambiental, and I personally like ambients a lot too :3 do you guys have some stuff posted online? C-Rex, I liked 'Crome teardrops' and 'ballad of sand' best, you're p good. Doringo It all depends on what engine would be used in the end but I believe Unreal uses C++ (much to the chagrin of my partner lol) Jcnorn Yuppp floppy ears! also TAILS please! u_u Bipedal monkey puppies! And of course the reference original norns were inspired by. Here's a thing I began making a while back using only 3D studio but it's super lowpoly (except for the fur) and I just kinda gave up on it lol. |
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jcnorn |
Yeah! Tails are definitely a thing that needs to be there. I even skinned it on my norn, but I did it wrong, so I couldn't wiggle on it as much as I wanted xD Ah, the joys of learning! haha |
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MalamuteKid |
@ Lurhstaap & Dragoler: Yeah I accidentally made all of those meshes too human-like.. lol.. I would like to make the grendels more bestial/feral looking in particular.. Assuming that these abominations (if I recall in the lore they were mistakes by the Shee?) have survived in a feral state, I would probably pack on an elongated maxilla, large mandible, and large massetter/temporalis muscles. I might look to some gorilla or baboon/mandrill skulls for ideas lol |
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Lodestar Doringo |
MalamuteKid wrote: It looks like a Banshee!  |
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Lurhstaap |
It'd be cool if Norns - and the other two main species, but particularly Norns as for most people they're still the main draw (and I say that as a Grendel fan) - actually had a variety of detail types - one that looked a bit catlike (maybe even two catlike ones, representing house/small cats and big cats, if we've got the time), another a bit canine (or two, one floppy-ear-dog type and one prick-ear wolf/fox type), still another rather mustelid/weaselish, perhaps one that's a little equine (Horse Norns LOL - give 'em tiny horns, too, as a nod-back!) Et cetera. We could start with a basic pack of six or so, just like the originals, and then expand from there. Fans could of course also create their own content just as with the 'real' Creatures games, but I think if we're going to do this we should take advantage of the talent pool we have here and make a few variations on the basic set. The more we offer people the more motivated they'll be to play with it and then make their own, after all. In time we could get really creative with the designs if we wanted - maybe an herbivorous Grendel with ram or goat horns and the same old aggressive outlook? XD Also agree that the Grendel should have a reptilian look, perhaps even like a mix of dragon and orc or something. The Ettins... eh. I've never been an Ettin fan so I'll leave it up to those who enjoy them more to decide what they should be like in the fanbuild. (Although depending on how they turn out I guess I might like them a lot more in the fanbuild, but we'll see LOL) Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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Rha |
Do keep in mind that the models need to be same in size and volume more or less to make sure the mixing of limbs of different species don't make it look like Frankenstein's monster. Also the coloring has to blend well. Did you guys try Niche? Those animals look so cute! Ettins remind me of these guys. Anyway, keep on adding things that can be helpful for inspiration, I'll try and make a Trello file in the meantime. |
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MalamuteKid |
... I created a couple more monstrosity sketches: More fail-grendels More accidental simians... Perhaps these are Kobolds that evolved a little? lol |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
The Promo section might help you out a little. It gives you pictures of all the creatures in a wider variety of poses than just in the games themselves. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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