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 Melqart   |
Hey everyone, I have recently discovered creatures 3/DS and I love it! I'm fascinated by the genetics, the biochemsitry,the brain,the learning process etc.. Maybe because I am a scientist  I must say that I was a bit disappointed though by the complete independance of the babies.. till I read about the Kai norn from C2. I searched everywhere but I'm pretty sure that no such norn exist for C3/DS. Can anyone help me with it? I'm only interested in the genetics even if the sprites are pretty cool. Is there any guide/walkthrough to make such a genome (It would be my first attempt..I know it's a huge task for a complete newbie!). Thank you all |
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 Malkin Manager  |
What kinds of features would such a norn have? My TCR Norns |
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Melqart |
The Kai babies can't digest normal food and they are dependent on their mom's milk. The mother is very caring towards the baby till the adolescent stage I guess. Here's the link where I found it first: http://www.creaturesvillage.com/wafuru/e/kai.html |
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Malkin Manager |
This article on Naturing::Nurturing discusses a neuron that allows norns to recognise some of their close family members, although it discusses it in terms of preventing inbreeding rather than promoting closeness. My TCR Norns |
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Melqart |
Yes thank you Malkin. I've found this one and it's interesting indeed. I'm still desperately looking for a dependent baby norns and maternal mothers |
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Malkin Manager |
It might be worth using the Digital-DNA Analyzer on the C2 Kai genome to work out how it worked in C2, and then trying to adapt those mechanisms to the C3/DS genome. Evolnemesis has recently been inspired by the C2 genome when working on the CFF Norns. My TCR Norns |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yes, some of my later CFF norn versions have genes that make babies more likely to want to seek out parents if they get scared, and they will tend to be a little more clingy until adolescence, when they will start to prefer the company of other norns and to spread out from their parents. It's not so obvious in a room as small as the DS meso, but you will really notice the behavior in larger metarooms. I am still working on the parental behavior towards children, I would like to make them more maternal and maybe protective of the children as well. It's a little challenging to do that without just making them more violent and likely to take it out on anyone around though. Get the latest ones here. The zip file includes a male and female gen1 baby exported at birth, as well as the .gen and .gno files so you can open the genome in the c3 genetics kit and mess with it or export it into eggs. They have many extra genes (nearly 50!) but they should be genetically compatible with any other creatures based on CFE or CFF or base genomes as well. These are the latest CFF genome. Besides the extra behaviors towards parents, they also have intelligence tweaks, they are a bit less talkative, prefer to talk only to creatures they like, can notice drowning unlike other norns and will try to escape and will tend to back out if they walk into the situation (they get a lot of fear and start to freak out if they can't breathe). They have a major overhaul to hunger, sporting an extra organ that helps them prioritize hunger properly, it will overwhelm their other drives if they get hungry enough (this helps them not starve to death while complaining about other drives), and a new brain lobe that detects when they are full and inhibits their desire to eat based on how full they are. They have some tweaks to breeding (still working on these), they will not get complete and unstoppable muscle death from either lactate or muscle toxin like other norns do, they deal with lactate in a more realistic way like in C2, and this also makes them SLIGHTLY better at surviving asphyxiation. They will get sleepy a little more quickly in the dark, they will get reward or punishment from the hand saying 'yes' or 'no', not just from a tickle or slap, and a few other little fixes. Most of these things were in the base C1 or C2 genomes, but were not included in any of the C3/DS genomes for some reason. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Melqart |
Thank you guys, you're very helpful Malkin, thank you for the suggestion. The link is broken though...I can't download the tool. Is there another link? evelonemesis, I've read the thread related to your development and I'm very excited to use your norns. Thank you for the link. I think if one can add the Milk production in the mothers and make the babies dependant on it, with all the improvement you already made, it would be very close to what I'm looking for. Can I bother you with some questions on the developement? I have to warn you though, some of them will be very basic as I'm only starting |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Sure thing, ask away... "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Malkin Manager |
You can download the tool here. My TCR Norns |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Malkin wrote: That link is malformed... This one will work "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Melqart |
Awesome! Thank you guys |
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Melqart |
Sorry for the double post. As I don't have creatures 2, I can't install the Kai and the Akamai canny (the one from which the Kai is derived) breeds. Can anyone send me the *.gen files from these two breeds so I can compare them with the DNA analyser? |
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Melqart |
Merry Christmas guys I spent a lot of time reading and trying to understand the norn's biology and well... it will take me ages to assimilate evrything! evolnemesis, I love your breeds. They are calmer and seem smarter but I don't have an extensive experience with regular norns..so I'll keep playing and testing them and I'll report any feedback here. I have some questions as I said about the Kai like norns. I'll quote the description I found within the Kai zip file and try to tell you what I understand from it. I would be grateful if anyone could give me clues or comments so that I can avoid wasting too much time. I'm usin Genelab as I couldn't install genetics kit. Also, I'm sorry for any spelling mistakes, English is only my third language. Baby kai norns are not able to digest solid food very well at all. They lack bile acid- an important chemical for breaking down starch, fats and protein [...] Once the baby grows into childhood, their digestion system starts working, and they can be treated like a normal norn I think by simply chaging the activation age of biochemistry/reactions protein to AA, startch to glucose and fat to triglyceride from birth to child and then tweaking the initial concentration of AA, glucose and triglycerid, I should create the intolerance and the fragility of new born norns. They are dependant on their mother's milk for sustenance. This is a bit intriguing for me. I guess milk is a new chemical but how can I create a new chemical? is it by simpling using one of the free chemical slots? And how this chemical would be produced by the mother but not used by her and "transmited" to the baby? It should be working like opposite sex pheromone.. produced by one creature but working on another.. So I presume I have to create a milk receptor in the baby, which would recognize the milk chemical and also a new Biochemistry reaction that transforms this Milk into AA, triglyceride and glucose. This recognition should only be possible during the baby stage. The production by the mother should also be transitional.. There is another clue here: Always keep a baby with its mother- the mother will feed and look after the baby far better than you can. The mother will only feed the baby, though, in the first 20 minutes since she laid the egg (not since the baby hatched!) Actually I'll quote all the description below so that everyone can have a look and I'll continue commenting probably tomorrow. The creators of the Kai did a fantastic job! http://textup.fr/114252xZ |
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 Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
I haven't used the Kai Norns in like a decade, but IIRC, the babies "push" their mother to get the milk? I could be wrong though... haven't played with them in forever.  |
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Melqart |
Thank you Ghosthande, that helps actually. It means that it probably works the same way the sex hormones.. When the female is fertile, she "pushes" the male. If the male is also "fertile", then the pregnancy starts.. Actually I found a beautiful explanation of the reproduction system of the norns. It's totally helpful but quite complex. I'll try to build up a simplified regulation diagram because this is the way I understand the best and I'll post it here. Here's the link of the original explanation. I'm totally fascinated, I love this "game" |
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Malkin Manager |
You can post Creatures-related images to Creatures Caves' Gallery. ![[ngrin]](/images/smilies/emot_grin.gif "[ngrin]") My TCR Norns |
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Melqart |
I repost my last message as it was deleted (moderated?). It's only a link to share what I have understood so far from the reproduction tutorial. It's simplified and not finished yet but I need some feedback (is it helpful to anyone?) http://img.myzupics.com/ac/thumbnail/2ee.jpg I still need to understand what's a locus, to have an exhaustive list of the loci that exist already and a way to create one. Thanks for your help. |
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 Tea Queen Laura |
The link in your previous post is still there, I just made it so people can click on it. |
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Malkin Manager |
I can't read the diagram, it's very small.  Did you mean to use this url instead?My TCR Norns |
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Melqart |
You can zoom in Malkin EDIT: Oh right I see. Thanks Laura, that's indeed the original tutorial. And yes Malkin, you're right. It's the link to the diagram I made. |
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 KittyTikara |
Did anyone ever give you the Kai genome? I just remembered that I have them installed. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog |
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Melqart |
Hey Kitty, Actually I found it on the internet but the Kai is made for C2...surprisingly it appears that no such a breed is being developped fort C3/DS! I'll try my best to make one but I need to learn the basis of their genome first! Btw, I've tried to install genetics kit several times (on windows 8.. ) but instead I have epson installation running which is strange!! I have genelab but I really want to try GK if anyone can help... EDIT: I had to delete my Epson scanner driver but the problem is fixed now |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
One thing you may find helpful is that the action of some of the various relationship pheromones that were in C2, like the sibling, parent, child, opposite sex, etc... were for the most part replaced by neurons in the new C3 brains, in their spiffy 'detail' lobe (that Naturing::Nurturing article Malkin linked talks about that lobe in pretty good detail). The state of these neurons can be used in chemical emitter/receptor genes and instinct genes to replace some of the chemicals that C2 norns used (I used neuron 5: "It is my parent" in new instincts in my CFF genome for the parental behaviors). Looking at it, I'm not sure that the mother could be told apart from the father using just these, I think that the mother will also need to make a specific chemical that the baby can detect if that's possible. And the other way around, when the mother is broody, she might fuss over and try to feed all her children (even mature ones), since all the neuron can tell her is whether it is her child, not it's age. (Then again, the original Kai norns might have all these issues too, I haven't played with them) Another problem you might run into converting the idea into a C3 genome is that C3 lacks drive reduction chemicals... so that in chemical receptor/emitters you can't reduce drives, only increase them (unless you use a custom chemical slot to make a drive reduction chemical and add the simple reaction that makes it cancel out the drive as in C2). In C3, the only other place besides a reaction you can normally reduce drives is in instincts (At least, like emitters/receptors, instincts are pretty versatile and can describe a lot of situations, but they will only give the creature an initial tendency to think that they will get that reward if they do that action... they will learn better and stop doing it if they don't get that reward) and you can also reduce drives in the more general and limited stimulus response genes (and they won't learn from the drive reduction unless it is in an instinct or a stimulus and not silent). "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Melqart |
Evolnemesis, this is very helpful, thank you so much ☺ In the kai description, they talk about the mom feeding the baby for 20 mn after laying the egg. It must be one of the mechanisms to control her broodiness. Another chemical is called maternal pberomone which must work like opposite sex pheromone during the reproduction... But you're right about the mom trying to feed all the children... I saw that reducing a drive is possible as you said by adding an inhibiting chemical and the appropriate chemical reaction...hmm I need to figure that out 😕 Actually some of my questions were simply answered by installing the genetics kit.. For example, I didn't find the It's my parent neurone in genelab but I did with GK. I'm going to start drafting my project and I'll keep you updated. I'm still looking for someone who could send me the .gen file of a kai and a canny norn. I don't have C2 and I only have the .exe files.. Anyone please ? ☺ |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
I would imagine that the new 'maternal pheromone' is that extra chemical which lets the babies detect their mother as a source of milk, and not just a parent. Making a drive reduction chemical that works the same as the c1/c2 drive reduction chemicals would be pretty simple I think: pick an unused chemical slot, go into the half-life gene, and set the half-life for that chemical to at least a few seconds. Let's just say you pick 111 as, say, Fear reduction (I don't know if that's free, check the chemical list, but for the sake of example): Then you would just add a reaction gene to the creature like this: 1 Chemical 111 + 1 Fear = 1 (Nothing) Set this reaction to the fastest reaction time (half-life/reaction speed slider at 0). This, along with the half-life you set, will make sure the chemical won't decay too fast to work... it will cancel out as much of the drive as it can first, nearly instantly, and then only the excess reduction chemical, if any is left, will decay.. This way, any time any new genes you created inject the creature with your new fear reduction chemical, the creatures fear gets lowered by exactly that amount, if possible. 20 of this fear reduction chemical would cancel out up to 20 fear, for example. NOTE: The creature will never be able to learn from this though, it will purely be a chemical change in it... for learning you pretty much need to use stimuli or instincts and the normal drive mechanisms. Also note that situations described by instincts in c3 norns are rewarded/punished with drive increases/decreases instead of just plain reward/punishment. This is because a c3 brain sees any drive increase as equivalent to punishment and any drive decrease as equivalent to reward, for learning purposes. They can now judge actions as good or bad for some drive they might be dealing with in some situation, not just good or bad in general, making them a bit smarter about picking actions that will help them deal with their highest drives. Reward/punishment chemicals are still there too, but are now only useful if you want to add significance to an event and additionally reward or punish the creature without further affecting any specific drives (slap/tickle use pretty hefty amounts of these so that the creature will get the message that an action is good or bad quickly). "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Missmysterics |
I'm fairly sure c3/DS norns interpret any drive reduction whatsoever as a reward, so if being around family reduces fear they will learn that it reduces fear. Well I've certainly had norns learn from agents that lower drives without stims anyway. More on the topic I really love the idea, I didn't find the behavior very noticeable in C2 kai norns, but c3/DS creatures are more likely to follow instincts and get the hint when something is good or bad. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
That's pretty much true, 1 drive reduction is equivalent to 1 reward as far as learning goes... they see drive reduction as reward, this is why C3 creatures don't need an organ to convert drive reduction chemicals into reward and drive chemicals into punishment like C2 norns do. It has the same effect on learning for them from the game engine. Drive chemical changes do cause learning and can't really be silenced (according to the CAOS manual anyway). That's also why C3 instincts can propose an effect on drives directly and don't have to just use punishment/reward to reinforce the ideas. Reward therefore in C3 can be used like a generic drive reduction, that gives them a good feeling as if they reduced a drive, it works for extra reinforcement, that's why you see a bunch of it on the 'hand tickle' and some on a couple of other genes. But, it also makes actions just a little more 'significant', for learning purposes. In the case of the 'happy' drunk norns I am testing, it is basically only the very small kind of boost like a norn might get from traveling, which causes a steady very small reduction in boredom while they are walking towards whatever they want to do... It is there to give them more incentive to walk to get something they want, and it just barely works, since walking is also tiring. With this drunk happiness, as long as some experience isn't particularly unpleasant, they are likely to think it's just a little more pleasant, and remember it just a little more fondly. It will have an effect, but a small one... It will make them like things they do or try to do while they are drunk just a little bit more, at worst it might make them more likely to get into somewhat of a rut if they really abuse alcohol all the time... and that happens to people too. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Missmysterics |
I was referring to the previous post where you were discussing picking a chemical to become a fear reduction chemical, you stated that a creature would never be able to learn from it as it would purely be a chemical change and not a stim, at least that's how I interpreted your post :B I didn't think drive reduction and reward were 1:1, that could explain why c3 and DS norns like to stuff their faces so much, and why normal CFEs are even worse; the reward for eating is a bit excessive, I kind of new that but I didn't exactly know what was making it excessive. Normally eating reduces boredom which I find suspect, but removing that barely does anything. With other things it doesn't matter so much,(toys don't disappear when played with for example) but imo food should be in limited supply to encourage foraging and realism. I haven't paid massive attention to how much CFFs eat, but I know I havn't had the "Oh god stop eating." reaction I get with normal norns. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Oh, yeah, it get's a little complicated when you look at how their brains weight things... I'm not sure about drive reduction chemicals, you could be right and they might be able to associate them with the actions they are doing when they are released and it reacts their drives away,.. it needs testing, I never made such a chemical, but I know in C2 that there was more mechanism involved than just having them reduce drives, they also had to specifically release reward/punishment too, and there were organs in C2s that did these functions. Here's my take on them in C3... If you look at stim genes in C3, you will see a 'significance' slider. The use of this slider is pretty obscure and it is zero for almost every stim, but I think I have it figured out. For certain stims, like eating, you will see it is higher. For a stim like 'hand slap' or 'hand tickle', it is not higher, but there is a significant amount of punishment or reward in those instead. My theory on these based on my testing is that the higher the 'significance', the more influence the event has on the brain... That is, the more significance, they will remember it... this acts as kind of an amplification factor for learning, to help cement vital behaviors like eating (it kind of explains why eating is one of the first things they tend to try with new objects). Reward and punishment chemicals, besides acting like an unknown drive reduction or increase, also seem to act as an increase 'significance', so that learning is also enhanced when those chemicals are there, based on how much of those chemicals are used. This way, they remember anything you discipline/reward them for a little better and are a little more likely to want to repeat or avoid the action in the future. Also, they only get brain reward/punishment for ACTUAL total drive reductions or increases they get... that is, if a stim says to lower their hunger by 50 but their hunger is just at 10, they will only feel a loss of 10 hunger that time. So, all these things kind of factor in... large amounts of reward/punishment can significantly amplify the memory of the total drive changes, so that behaviors get cemented a little easier. A small amount of either shouldn't have very much of an effect though, just sort of make the action that much more or less desirable, acting as if they were some slight extra total drive increase or reduction (for example, the 'disappointment' stim gives punishment, and they can get this stim a lot.. it helps discourage them more quickly from repeating impossible actions) "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Missmysterics |
I've looked through the default genomes and they have the eating stims at 0 significance. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
There are some genes with significance and they do represent things that norns seem to tend to start to do more just on everything, Let me see.. Okay here is one: Gene 402 - Stimulus 016 - I ate it (Stim - I've eaten something) - significance is at .239 There is also Gene 389 - creature hit me (very high significance) Gene 399 - Activated 1 (I pushed it - this one has pretty high significance) Gene 403- I Approach it Gene 399 - I deactivated it Gene 398 - I got it (about the same as the 'I ate') Gene 401 - traveling gene 393 - creature patted me gene 391 - i hit someone (high significance) and a few more... generic stims involving general actions that they tend to try faster, or that make a bigger impression than others. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Missmysterics |
Well derp, I must have missed that. I was thinking, in order for the parental behavior to exhibit reliably, wouldn't it have to reduce it's own special drive? Then it would have to be produced again so the behavior doesn't stop before the baby is old enough. Possibly laying an egg would inject a chemical that only dissipates over time, and that chemical is converted into the parental drive which can be decreased by being with the offspring, which would replenish again due to the first chemical. Also an egg-collecting instinct akin to that of grendels could be used to make the mother take their egg to the norn meso's heat pan. (female grendels almost always immediately pick up their eggs and take them to the jungle as soon as they're laid, and infact I mistook this for parental behavior first time I saw it.) It would be neat to have a "nest" agent which functions the same as the heat pan and means they don't have to go to the norn meso and you don't have to hatch the egg yourself when you're trying to contain the population within certain metarooms. Maybe the chemical will last long enough for the egg to hatch without any incubation, but there is some concern them mother might "imprint" on the wrong norn |
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 GimmeCat |
Here is the Kai genome if anyone is still looking for it. |
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 c1anddsaddict |
Missmysterics wrote: The grendel egg-stealing is mostly scripted, I believe. There are some genes related to it, but not enough to get the full effect. (Ettin gadget hoarding is also mostly scripted) However, as for nesting behavior, that exists in several genomes. If you leave vanilla chichis in the Meso and let them breed, you may notice that they tend to lay their eggs near the heating pad. This is because they have a homesickness drive. When the norn becomes pregnant, she receives a large dose of it. Homesickness drive pushes her to return to the "Norn Home". In the Meso, that's the heating pan. The genes for this behavior can be found in the vanilla genomes, if you want to take a look. DS village My TCR norns STAY AWAY FROM THE MOLDY, DISEASED CHICKEN NUGGET STASH!!! |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
Nah, I think the grendel thing is fully genetic. You will notice that it is by far not as complex as the ettin one. Grendels only pick up the eggs, really, and simply carry them around as a talisman. Only the ettins are scripted. And if I recall right, the only scripted part about them is the very last bit of the cycle. Steal gadget, feel homesick, walk home, that is all genetic. The script part is there to force them drop the gadget again and to make them ignore gadgets inside Ettin Home. Ettin Home is not only a smell as the grendel or norn home, but it is also a room type (like air, soil or saltwater) specifically introduced for the drop bit. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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