 |
welcome, guest |
| Help Forum | ||||
 |
| |||
 Minx   |
I am very excited about observing the genetics of my selective breeding runs; however I have a few questions regarding different contents of genomes that I'm not quite understanding. I don't know if a familiarity with Gene Compare, C3 genetics or both is required, but any help will surely suffice! When looking at creature differences, there are a few things that habitually pop up that I just don't understand. Here are a few specifics that may clear up other general issues. 526 gene (something like "I have said need, or express) often posts a difference between creatures; however, the difference is not found with the genetics lab. The change is simply this: <br> 526 Different in file 1 56 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I have said need (20) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,0 => -6*Anger + -2*Crowded + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> 526 Different in file 2 56 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I have said need (20) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,32 => -6*Anger + -2*Crowded + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> Note the ",,,0" and ",,,32"? That's the only difference, and it doesn't tell me what that IS. Any insight into this? I see this all the time, at varying numbers (one being at 0 and the other anywhere from 1-127). I have a few other questions, but I have already forgotten them while trying to explain this one. Thanks in advance for any help or links regarding this. EDIT: Apparently I can't share the file that I want to share through my Cloud account, and there are few more things on that document I'd like for you guys to check out plus a better rendering of the copy/paste I did above. Is there a website to upload free documents that I may post a link for? Tinypic only works for photos, and copy/pasting the document to Paint makes it look terrifying. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
 Malkin Manager  |
According to Jessica, that number describes which of the chemicals are marked as "silent" - the creature still receives them, but the creature doesn't know that they came from doing that action. Looking at the gene 'I have eaten detritus', it also has a value of 32: 505 Different in file 2 39 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Eaten detritus (81) causes sig=0 GS neu=0 int=0, ,,,32 => 13*Pain + 25*Glycotoxin + 0*<NONE> + 0*<NONE> Looking at it in the genetics kit, 32 seems to correspond with the glycotoxin being silent, but all other chemicals being learned. So it looks like your norn does not learn that expressing itself reduces its crowdedness.  I like box.net myself, but others use google docs. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Thanks, Malkin. It's amazing how one little number can drive a person crazy. I wonder if 32 is a set number to show the differential between the "known" and "silent" chemicals of which you speak or if there's a 0-??? scale they can follow. It's just seems interesting that both differences contain the number 32, that's all. That makes a lot of sense now, though. Perhaps that's why he gets on a loop when trying to express himself, hehe. I will try box.net, thank you. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
There seems to be an 0-X scale that they follow, where 240 is 'all 4 chemicals are silent' and 0 is 'every chemical is learned'. I imagine, and this is just extrapolating based on ATTR and BHVR, which may not apply... that each silent-box has a unique value that is added up to create that last number, and that 32 signifies the second chemical is silent. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
I see. Would any number greater than 0 give a "silent" factor to the second (rather than first, third, fourth, all) chemical each time, or just in that particular figure? I guess I don't complete understand because 240 into four chemicals would be 60, which would mean to me that 1-60 would signify that the first chemical is silent. I know I'm understanding this wrong, though. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
Drat, doesn't seem to work like that  112 seems to correspond with 'the first 3 chemicals being silent'. 80 seems to correspond with 'the first chemical and the third chemical being silent'. 224 seems to correspond with 'the last 3 chemicals being silent'. 64 seems to correspond with chemical 3 being silent. 192 seems to correspond with 'the last 2 being silent'. 160 corresponds with chemical 2 and 4 being silent. 48 corresponds with the first two being silent. 208 corresponds with only chemical 2 being learned. 16 corresponds with the first chemical being silent. and 32 corresponds with the second chemical being silent. Maybe the addition is done in hexadecimal? My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
That would be two easy for my brain, of course.  That clarifies quite a bit for me. Thank you for posting all of that info. Copy/Paste!I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
240 corresponds with all of the chemicals being silent. I've tablularised it and posted it as a picture on CC.com, hope it helps! What other problems did you have with reading your gene compare? My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Oh-so many. EDIT: Yeah, tried to post the url as a hyperlink, but clearly that didn't work. You'll just have to copy/paste the old-fashioned way. Let's try this link out: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Dao5_UNPP0t1xuC56Zk6NIqG9-fqCZb4wxXGYdsRq2A Feel free to help will one, all or none. I keep adding more as the evening continues.  I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Minx |
Also, I see a lot of GS neu=X in "Creature/Stimulus", which is generally a 1-5 number. When looking at the genetics kit, numbers seem to correspond with actions like "shiver, lay egg, faint, drown, etc". Does that mean when a creatures receives the stimulus, they react with the corresponding action? Here's an example: 404 Different in file 1 18 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Heard creature speak (11) causes sig=0 GS neu=4 int=0, ,,,240 => 1*Crowded + -10*Loneliness + -11*Fear + -5*Anger 404 Different in file 2 18 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Heard creature speak (11) causes sig=0 GS neu=5 int=0, ,,,240 => 1*Crowded + -10*Loneliness + -11*Fear + -5*Anger Um.. does these mean when file 1 hears a creature speak they shiver and file 2 falls asleep? Or are these just pose indicators? All that being said, why are 8-255 Unknown? So many questions! I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
Hm. I don't know much about gait, pigments or poses, you might like to read Exploring the Ark, mip's got some gene compares up there with pose problems... I'll see about the loci, though. Yes, norns tend to react with an action to some stimuli - 0 is look, for example. Ghosthande's got a list on her site - you want the Verb IDs for the stimulus reactions. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Fabulous, thank you. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
It seems that because my copy of the genetics kit is... very jerry-rigged, I can't check what 'unknown locus 1' is, but perhaps someone else can. Sorry.  My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
That's okay. Every locus except for zero (which is labeled as reaction rate) is considered "unknown" in the Genetics Lab when looking at Biochemistry/Receptors. I don't really understand how the loci fits into the equation, though, even if I can recognize it as "reaction rate". Also, I looked at Ghosthande's list, and although it is very helpful, none of those actions are in the drop-down list. Though 8-254 are "unknown", the first seven are labelled as the following: 0-Flinch 1-Lay egg 2-Sneeze 3-Cough 4-Shiver 5-Sleep 6-Faint 7-Drown While typing that, I am currently looking at gene 404. I guess they are all still verbs, but they are not on the verb list he supplied. I'm at a loss at what the others are. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
Those 7 are the involuntary actions, they've got nothing to do with the stimuli gene 'reaction' portion. While the stimuli of flinching, laying eggs, sneezing, coughing, shivering, sleeping, fainting and drowning can give chemicals and creature reactions, the neuron = X portion is derived from the Verb ID list. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Okay. I am just going to keep posting things forever, just so you know. This stuff gets pretty fascinating.Here's a fun one: 462 Different in file 1 14 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 37 (Grendel)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Anger] => Cell 12 (Eat); unknown = 0. 460 Different in file 2 14 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 [03: stim] [Cell 37 (Grendel)] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] + [Brain Lobe 255] [Cell 0] and [Anger] => Cell 13 (Hit); unknown = 0. So, does my file 1 instinctively want to eat rather than hit when there is a grendel around and he's angry? I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Minx |
Here's another one: 268 Different in file 1 43 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Loneliness + 1*<NONE> => 1*Loneliness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 268 Different in file 2 43 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Loneliness + 0*<NONE> => 1*Loneliness backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 The first says 1*<none> and the second says 0*<none>. Is that some kind of change that has no effect because the chemical is, in fact, nothing? I wrote a new post because it was a different question, though still about Gene Compare. Should I just be editing my most recent posts if I have another question? I know that's what is preferred, but I just wasn't sure since this isn't about what I wrote above. *shrug* EDIT: Here is a weird one: 271 Different in file 1 58 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Sex drive + 1*<NONE> => 1*Sex drive backup + 1*<NONE>; half-life = 18 271 Different in file 2 58 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Sex drive + 1*<NONE> => 1*Sex drive backup + 1*Lactate; half-life = 18 I know there is some sort of reaction rate going on here, but I'm not completely sure how it works. Does file 2's sex drive him make him produce the lactate chemical or is it vice versa? Or none? I wonder if I have a norn on my hands that gets friendly when he has a choking sensation.. oh my. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
"So, does my file 1 instinctively want to eat rather than hit when there is a grendel around and he's angry?" Yes. At a guess, you may get him advising 'maybe eat food/fruit/seed' to anyone who's angry. I doubt he'd go 'maybe eat grendel', but it's a possibility. "The first says 1*<none> and the second says 0*<none>. Is that some kind of change that has no effect because the chemical is, in fact, nothing?" Yes. If the chemical itself later mutated to be... pain, or something, so you'd have one unit of pain being produced, then there would be an effect. We're currently trialling double posting, particularly in the help and development forums. It's more common sense and courtesy than anything else. If it's about a different sub-topic, or if you've a lot to say, or if you've changed your mind completely, it's ok. If it seems like a bump attempt, or a self-conversation, or if it's 'why hasn't anyone helped me yet??? :.(', it would be frowned upon. So, common sense and courtesy - easy, right? My TCR Norns |
|||
Malkin Manager |
271 Different in file 2 58 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 Organ# = 15, 1*Sex drive + 1*<NONE> => 1*Sex drive backup + 1*Lactate; half-life = 18 To understand this, one must first understand backup drives and an organ. This gene is in the Painly drive overwhelmsion organ. When the norn is in lots of pain, several of its drives are 'stored' so that the norn can more effectively deal with whatever's hurting it. When your normal norn is in lots of pain, sex drive is converted to sex drive backup, which it can't feel. When your norn is in lots of pain, sex drive is converted to sex drive backup and lactate, which means that your norn is not only in great pain, it is suffering from a choking sensation and muscle injury too, which differs in intensity depending on how much sex drive was converted to sex drive backup. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Easy as pie. This norn I'm looking at right now sure has some funny stuff going on. I eat when I'm angry too, sometimes. Okay, so here: 405 Different in file 1 19 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I have retreated (17) causes sig=13 GS neu=14 int=0, ,,,32 => -11*Crowded + 2*Loneliness + -7*Fear + 0*<NONE> 405 Different in file 2 19 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 0 I have retreated (17) causes sig=13 GS neu=14 int=0, ,,,32 => -11*Crowded + 2*Loneliness + -7*Fear + 0*147 "0*<none>" and "0*147" are different in this gene; however, 147 doesn't belong to any chemical. Would this be different than what we just discussed about <none>? The value is at zero, so if the value increased, there is no chemical to be identified with 147; conversely, if 147 mutated, there would be no value to address its presence. And, lastly (though probably not), I understand the definition of "significance," but not really in the context of genomes. I know there is a scale, so I can identify with greater/lesser values, but what does this actually affect? Does this mean the creature is more likely to prioritize the event even if it is a cause/effect situation? You can use my example gene 405 for this as well. The significance is set at 13, yet the gene simply regulates some chemicals when he feels "I have retreated". It's not really a verb, so the priority definition is lost on me for this one. Does the feeling of accomplishment just resonate more profoundly? I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
At the moment, the second is functionally the same as the first, although the second could mutate further to be 0 units of chemical 148 (which is pain), and then further still to be 1 unit of pain. With regards to the significance, Genornics and the CDR have information on stimuli, which, while written for C1, are still fairly applicable to C3/DS. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Thank you for all of your help this evening, Malkin. I will check out the link and some others I have found along the way. I think I'm actually going to hang out with my norns now, so I will leave you alone for awhile. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
No worries! The "Unknown Locus" problem above might mean that the Fight or Flight response is a bit broken. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
I just read your post about the painly drive overwhelmism organ that I guess I missed, and I think I understand. So, if he sex drive is high and he is in pain (which generally happens within a group of norns that are always hitting each other), then his sex drive will be temporarily stored away AND he will feel even more pain? Yikes. From that, I have another question. I must be completely missing this, but how can you tell which organ is which? In my Genetics Lab (one from German Creatures), everything is nicely organized in a hierarchy of organs and their corresponding genes. Strangely, though, when you click on the organ, it gives you its own basic information but doesn't indicate which organ it actually is. Any help on this or am I just missing something that is obvious? I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
If he is in a lot of pain, he will stow away several drives, including his sex drive, as backup drives, so that he can best concentrate on how to alleviate his pain. If he was feeling particularly frisky prior to receiving pain, (as is common in a mixed-sex group) then he will be in pain, and will choke slightly. The official chemical list reckons this is a good thing when drowning, as it theoretically makes drowning a bad thing. So, it could actually turn out to be a positive. Due to the muscle tissue injury, though, I'd keep an eye on his muscle organ. (This can be replenished through injections of muscle tissue). You can get the X-Ray agent, which monitors organ health, at the link just there. I've not used Genetics Lab, so this might not be helpful. When a gene in Gene Compare says it is "Organ = XX" near the start, that means that it belongs to that particular organ. The .gno files that you get with some .gen files are comments on what each gene does - so it labels the organs. As you've been working off your own norns, you haven't been seeing the .gno comments. Try opening up an official genome and taking lots of screenies as reference - most norns will be similar enough to an official norn that this should be helpful. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
Yes, it has all of the comments like you suggested by opening up an official genome. I thought I had seen that somewhere, but a lot of times I feel like I'm in a labyrinth trying to figure some of this stuff out. It has the exact name for each organ in this. Yay! I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
 mip |
Malkin wrote: Looking at the link you posted regarding lactate (which was very useful, thank you!), it mentions lactate is converted into pyruvate when the norn is breathing air. The mutation could mean that not only does the norn potentially give extra urgency to the high pain (due to 'choking'), the norn could also have extra energy produced which could be good for them. This thread is really interesting! I'm still pretty new at C3DS genetics so it's good to read examples like these.  Exploring the Ark A journal for C3/DS - updated last: 5 May 2013 |
|||
mip |
Okay, I've had a look at the gait and pose genes you posted. Here's my thoughts. Please note that I'm pretty inexperienced so my interpretations could be wrong! 479 New in file 1 12 0 Emb B MutDupCut 128 1 Sequence for Bored = 61 62 63 64 0 0 0 0 The only difference on this mutation is the change from 0 to 1. I think this might be the variation number, though I'm not sure what that does exactly and a cursory google search hasn't brought up anything relevant! I'm sure someone else on the forum will know more. 545 New in file 1 17 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 1 Pose 12 (Stand) = ? ? 2 2 1 2 1 2 2 0 1 1 2 1 0 X 548 New in file 1 20 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Pose 61 (Wander 1) = ? 2 2 2 0 1 1 2 2 0 1 1 1 1 0 X Again, I think these changes are to the variant of pose? 563 New in file 1 35 0 Chi B MutDupCut 128 0 Pose 75 (Startled) = ? 1 3 0 0 1 3 2 1 0 1 1 3 3 0 X This one is a bit more interesting. As well as the 1 to 0 change which I think is the variation, the stage at which this gene starts working has changed as well. Previously the gene for the startled pose would have activated at birth (at the Embryo stage). This has changed to the Child stage. Your norn might not be able to show when they're frightened when they're a baby. Exploring the Ark A journal for C3/DS - updated last: 5 May 2013 |
|||
Malkin Manager |
I think the 0 and 1 refer to the variant: "Although this is not used in Creatures 3, it is possible to have several variants of Norn, such as exist in Creatures Adventures. In this case, this flag dictates which variant the gene is expressed in. It is possible to have several Norn variants in Creatures games. This feature is not used in Creatures3, but is the basis for the different personalities of Creatures Adventures Norns." My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
I see, so the variant basically means nothing and I can stop fretting over it Thanks for your insight, mip. I didn't even notice the Chi/Emb difference, and I bet you're correct! This thread has definitely given me a lot of insight into genetics. Check out all of the links Malkin posted, too, though I'm sure you're already familiar with them. Still, I bookmarked them and use them as references about every five minutes when using Gene Compare. Malkin, I tried to download the Xray you were talking about, and I know I've had it before in my DS game and it has worked fine; however, this time it won't do anything. At first, the agent would inject and vanish each time I tried to get it into the system. I went and re-downloaded it plus the updated version, and even though they are both named the same once unzipped, the original has many more files to it. I tried to stick the files where I thought they should go, but I ended up with a ".info" for which I cannot find a home. I can now inject the xray into my game, but now it looks like the old one and has absolutely no functionality. Any thoughts? I can re-post this somewhere else if need be. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
Another of my constant companions are the C3 Chemical List, and the full output of the civet genome from Chris Double's site. The X-Ray topic might be better on its own thread, as it's not really related to gene compare, and making a new thread would hopefully attract the attention of people who have used the X-Ray. My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
That C3 chemical list has been quite helpful as I always forget what a certain chemical does when I haven't looked at it for awhile. Re-posted x-ray. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
mip |
The more I think about it, the more dubious I feel about what I thought were variables. I'm now starting to think that the 0 that comes after the lifestage is the variable. But if that's the case, than what are the 0 and 1s from your mutations?! I'm looking forward to finding out the answer. Exploring the Ark A journal for C3/DS - updated last: 5 May 2013 |
|||
Minx |
Thanks, mip. Those "1s" in place of "0s" is coming up quite a bit, and all over the spectrum of genes and organs. In gait and pigment (which would be the most obvious to observe for me), the new "1" number in that place doesn't seem to have an effect that I can see right away. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
Malkin Manager |
Slight threadjack here, but it's gene compare so it's a 'worked example' you might find interesting: You can see a gene compare output for the Gizmo Norns here. I'm not quite sure which are the digestive edits that Grendel Man is referring to, the ones to improve their need to eat before breeding age, but being able to see the genes in gene compare helps. When reading Gene Compare chemicals: 78 is ATP Decoupler 90 is Wounded Brain chemical 1 is Disappointment and for completeness's sake: CA smell 11 (?) is Creature egg smell CA smell 18 (?) is Gadget smell My TCR Norns |
|||
Minx |
I'm not sure what you meanwhen you say "which are the digestive edits that Grendel Man is referring to". I must be missing where he had said something in the first place. As far as the link is concerned, I'm completely captivated by it. I love the notations, and I am only a few scrolls through, but I really love the Gizmo Norn. I need to get me one of those! I also almost always use the genetics lab side-by-side with gene compare, and it definitely helps explain various idiosyncrasies. I want to create a C3 breed someday.. Formally defectiveminx. |
|||
| downloads cobs adoptions creaturelink metarooms breeds gallery art wallpaper screenshots graphics promos sprites |
dev hack shack script reservations dev resources active projects dev forum community links advice chat polls resources |
creatchi forum bookmarks general news help development strangeo survivor |
mycaves log in register lost pw |
0 online |
| creatures caves is your #1 resource for the creatures artificial life game series: creatures, creatures 2, creatures 3, docking station, and the upcoming creatures family. contact help privacy policy terms & conditions rules donate wiki |
||||