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Donny & Marie   C3DS Norn   evolnemesis | 3/31/2015  log in to like post  5

spritesBondi Norns
These are Bondis converted with the very latest 0.8 CFF genome, and may in fact represent the completion of the CFF project (genome included in zip). As with all test CFF, comments are more than welcome... See the development thread for details on the CFF genome. If these are successful, release of the final CFF 1.0 versions of all official breeds, with egg agents, will follow. The most significant change in this version is that, like in C1/C2, illness will now take nutrition from the norns' bodies... keep them well-fed or treat them quickly for illnesses or they may waste away... this needs testing to see how drastic the effect is (or if it's even noticeable). Your feedback is encouraged.

Besides that, they are Bondi with all Bondi traits like longer life and a taste for edible critters (they really love Crobsters...), some small changes to socialization and the fullness response from previous versions, another drunk personality variation, and some additional realistic biochemistry stuff from previous games... see the last page of the development thread for details on the 0.8 changes.

EDIT: These seem to have something weird going on with their genetics... Their hunger overwhelmsion organ does not seem to be expressing even though it is in their genome, and they are acting like they have a problem with their brains or some of their instinct processing... I'm going to have to look at these and figure out what is going on... I may have to reconvert their genome, because it seems there is corruption.
Wingheart | 8/7/2015  log in to like post

Has the genetic corruption been fixed?
evolnemesis | 4/7/2015  log in to like post

These definitely have some kind of learning disability or weirdness going on with their instinct processing, and I don't think their hunger overwhelmsion organ is working properly either. They act mostly like instinctless norns or maybe a kind of Gizmo... they will eat on their own sometimes, and they do tend to snap up crobsters if one is nearby, but they definitely have less of an idea of how to survive on their own and are more prone to EE.
evolnemesis | 4/4/2015  log in to like post

Their eating habits are different too... being Bondi, they have less of an instinct to go after regular food and want edible critters (but I think they still should eat regular stuff if they get hungry enough)... Still, put some crobsters in front of them and they go nuts munching them down... at least the ones I hatched did. Hmm, yeah, I see the organ in the genome too, but I don't see it in the X-Ray. Never had that happen... I gotta figure out what's up with that... these do seem to have some kind of problem.. mine just keep saying the direction they are going in and whining a lot unless I point at something and then they mess with that thing.. except crobsters they seem to grab those easily... It's almost like they have messed up instinct processing or some kind of learning problem. At least the new Evos I made don't have that problem, they seem a lot smarter and I see the organ... Man, that means I probably have to reconvert these, there must be some kind of corruption...

Not sure why the organ wouldn't show up, that's very odd... As for the the adipose tissue thing, it requires that adipose be over 94.5% or so of maximum for it to start doing anything, so it can get pretty high with no effect... I have yet to see one get to that level just from eating... 14 minutes is faster than I thought for it to be able to kill, but then again you were basically injecting all its arteries with pure lard it's entire life. I can't imagine a person would live much past childhood with those kinds of levels in their blood either... but yeah, that's taken straight from C1 and C2... you would probably have similar results if you inject a C1 or C2 norn with adipose tissue and keep it topped off.
KittyTikara | 4/4/2015  log in to like post

I have a bit of feedback as well. Mine seem to be a bit er dense. They pace around and get ee syndrome fairly easily. They will eat on their own, but they don't seek it own that often. They're in a docked world, so it can't be the metarooms fault. Also, the extra organ doesn't show up in the xray agent, even thought I know it's in the genome. Is all of this just my game? It seems like they act fine in other people's world.

The "adipose tissue killing Norns" is a nice idea, as is the vitamin one. I tested the worst case scenario for adipose though, and it kills them in about 14 minutes. That was with me topping the adipose off every few minutes though, and not a natural adipose level. Another poor test Norn was injected with a lot of adipose and he survived. He'll likely die early though, his heart organ is pretty damaged.
evolnemesis | 4/4/2015  log in to like post

Okay, good feedback, hmm... I was afraid of that with the germs... and you are sure it wasn't antigen 5? I'm not sure if there is any simple way for me to make the nutrition loss from sickness weaker without making a bunch of new genes... I really don't want to fiddle with the rest of their immune system too much... I might have to just scrap it then, that's definitely too lethal, and right now each immune reaction is only using 1 glucose per batch of antibodies it makes, there's no way I can lower the nutrition loss more in those reactions without just making the reactions slower, and that could hurt them too.

The boredom right now for the 'found company' (reached source of norn smell, emitted periodically when next to other norns) stim is at +2.. I could change it to +1, that might lower it enough... I probably will still need to tweak their fertility up too if I do that.

Bonnie and Clyde actually had a loss of boredom when near each other (-2 I think, like the treehuggers and lucy&ricky), but Hardmen are fairly antisocial and never are drawn towards each other for loneliness or anything else... I actually found Hardmen and the Dark Banshees never bred with each other when they had the boredom, which is why I took it away in 0.6. Maybe I should just have boredom not affected by that stim at all... I think I will try that first, since it's something I haven't tried yet, and preferably I want this fix to work for all breeds...

I'll put up a pair with no boredom effect from 'found company'... that should also help the fertility, so I'll leave fertility alone in this first tweaked batch... as for the immune nutrition thing, I'll look and see if there is something I can do, but it looks like I might just have to scrap it... it will be hard to fix even with new genes... if the nutrition loss isn't related to the antibody making reactions, it becomes practically impossible to control it and link it to sickness; those reactions are the only thing in the body that indicate an illness.
CeruleanSilver | 4/4/2015  log in to like post  1

I'm definitely running into some problems right now.

First, I like the way they spread out. But, when I try and get them to breed one frequently just walks away. In my world, they don't seem to breed at all on their own.

Second, the germs seem to kill them 9 times out of 10. This goes back to the first point, because I tried to compensate for their antisocial behavior by making a lot of them which lead to a massive wipe out from a germ spreading between them.

While I don't think that the idea of the germs being more deadly should be scrapped, it seems something in this equation has to change. I'd suggest decreasing the lethality of germs/increasing their immune system strength slightly, decreasing slightly the amount of boredom from being around other norns, and slightly increasing their fertility. Just some real minor tweaks, and see how that goes. I'm more then willing to test that, if you'd like to try a couple batchs with minute differences.

So far, the most complete/"playable" version of CFF I think is Bonnie and Clyde.
evolnemesis | 4/4/2015  log in to like post

Yes, they gradually become bored with each other when close together, like my librarians and CFF 0.3-0.5 (The CFF Chichi breed, the Evos, and Fred & Ethel)... This is different from most Norns, who find each other fascinating to just be near and to stare at.

CFF 0.6-0.7 don't get this boredom (Lucy & Ricky, the Panda Norns based on their genome, John & Yoko, and Bonnie & Clyde), and find each other's company a little interesting, but a lot less interesting than most other breeds do. So, your test Treehuggers don't get bored with each other, and quickly figure out playing with plants and stuff helps them not feel crowded. If they had the boredom like these Bondi, they almost certainly would spread out more.

I've been going back and forth to find what people think is the best balance... I'm not sure if this boredom with each other is a good thing or not... On the one hand, it REALLY cuts down on speech loops (though they still can happen), stops a lot of the weird sitting and staring at each other, encourages them to spread out more and not form the typical Norn clump, and they do still interact with each other when they feel like it. On the other hand, they seem to kind of pace back and forth for no reason sometimes, and may seem a bit antisocial... It might also cut down on breeding a little (which could be good, but they already have some fertility changes that do that).

All in all, I'm not sure which is better... I'd really like to see what other people think... I definitely could use feedback... What do you think?
CeruleanSilver | 4/4/2015  log in to like post

I think I pinpointed the issue. They're getting bored with each other, they walk towards a door, they hit the door, become afraid, start running into the wall more, and die. They seem to do just fine in the bottom of the meso. I think the issue is that they are spreading out more then normal and I didn't see this happening even in large groups of other breeds who never really went anywhere.

Now that I implemented the changes to the code you mentioned they seem very happy and perfectly competent.

edit: I know the treehuggers were supposed to spread out more, but in my games they always congregated in the bottom of the meso where there were more plants regardless of their feelings of crowdedness, thus avoiding this same problem. Not to mention, once they got down there they were completely befuddled by the strange elevator contraptions.
CeruleanSilver | 4/3/2015  log in to like post

That does seem to be the issue. I don't know why these guys in particular brought this to my attention, but you seem to be correct. They seem afraid and randomly retreating, which is into the wall. I have no clue why it was so pronounced in this instance.

Edit: You definitely don't need to go over the genetics. This is probably unrelated and just a stroke of bad luck!
evolnemesis | 4/3/2015  log in to like post  1

Hmm... that's really weird... I haven't seen their fear drive ever get high during testing either, though I did have one that just decided to wallbonk a lot for no reason I could determine... Nothing in the genetics should be doing that though... I'll go over their gene-compares with a fine-toothed comb and see if I see anything unusual...

That being said, the 'fix' to allow the Creature DoneTo scripts to send the wallbonking stimulus seems to not be good in general, I can see why they did not send the stim in the original script... The stim injures and causes pain in most genomes, but as it is, the creatures' brains can't associate the pain or negative stimulus properly with the direction they are going... and worse, when they hit walls, the stim urges them to retreat, but they can't see the wall as something to retreat from, so they just retreat from whatever else they can see, which tends to make them bang into the wall even more. So, right now, the 'fixed' wallbonking in the "CreatureDoneTo" script really just makes the issue worse, not better.

I can try and find a better response to the wallbonking stimulus for CFF creatures, but the stimulus would still be dangerous for every other creature, so it's probably best to just leave the wallbonking stimulus disabled, and have them just get the normal disappointment.

To re-disable the wallbonking stim, if you have the fixed Creatures DoneTo script installed, go into the "creatureDoneTo.cos" and "DS CreatureDoneTo.cos" in the 'bootstrap' folder of your games, find any lines with
stim writ 7 1
and add an asterisk before those lines, so they read
*stim writ 7 1
this will turn those lines into comments and disable it.

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