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Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/13/2015

They have the overwhelmsion edits to remove homesickness when hungry, they'll just spend a long time staring at the candle while standing in the same spot as it (probably from the homesickness they get when picking up eggs).
This results in a clump of Norns saying 'approach norn home' while every egg in the metaroom is within about one centimetre of space, completely obscuring the candle and any Norns younger than adolescence.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/13/2015

Wow, your norns must really like picking up eggs... I guess they just get bored and grab them and then because of instinct feel they have to bring them home (and drop them once they get there).

Using the CAOS command CACL in the command line can associate the candles properly with home smell, so the Norns properly know that the home smell around them is coming from them... It lets them link the smell and the candles in their brains, so they can also get the proper 'home' stimuli from approaching them, reaching them, and so on.

I don't know the agent classification number of those comfort candles though, or I could give you the exact command. The CACL command MIGHT already be in the agent code, but from your description of their behavior, it sounds like it's not, just the EMIT commands to make them smell like home... They seem to be stuck thinking they are still approaching home without ever realizing they already got there or getting their nice drop in homesickness... CACL should always be used when having something emit a smell that is not usual for its class, or it can cause confusion and navigation issues in creatures...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/13/2015

They're classed as norn home. At least this variant of candle is.
I don't know why the norns like picking up eggs so much, I guess it's because I'm at pop limit with like 20+ eggs.

 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  8/13/2015

Fever toxin does go away naturally, but the issues seemed to last long after it had diminished.
On home smell, I didn't think they could recognise the exact source of the smell in the meso or Norn terrarium either?

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  8/13/2015

The CACL link with norn home already exists in the bootstrap files. :)

My TCR Norns
 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/13/2015

Yeah that's why it's classed as Norn Home, to make sure the creatures get the stim.
It also happened with the default Norn Home, so in the Norn Terrainium there were TWO clumps, not one: one was where I put the Candle, one was by the default norn home. (They were eating everything there and running out of food, so I added a second norn home to make them spread out a bit.)

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/13/2015  1

Missmysterics wrote:
Fever toxin does go away naturally, but the issues seemed to last long after it had diminished.
On home smell, I didn't think they could recognise the exact source of the smell in the meso or Norn terrarium either?



Yeah, the breathing issues and panting would be related to their hotness, I believe, not directly to the toxin, it can take some time to go down by itself if they are very hot, I think panting is the only way to naturally relieve hotness, and that gets triggered automatically by a high temperature and increases their breathing rate (taking shallower breaths) based on how hot they are... Very hot norns can easily suffocate from this.

I guess the candles are working as intended... The creatures should walk away from them eventually then, to eat at the very least... I'll have a look and try and make sure homesickness isn't sticking around in them when it shouldn't be...

As for the smell, the default creature homes actually are visible to creatures as objects and they can recognize them... (if not, they would be just a confusing to the creatures as if they were an unclassified agent making the smell... they'd notice a smell, but not have a way for their brains to know what's making it) The home agents have invisible sprites, so YOU can't see them, but thanks to how the homes' BHVR and CACL is set, the creatures CAN see them as things to navigate to related to that smell.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/13/2015

If you select a very homesick norn or ask the selected norn to look norn home, while near the spot that the norns go to lay their eggs, you can see the green attention arrow go to the norn home and then if you're quick you can f1-click on it.

Haven't checked in a while but I think it had a funny description.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/19/2015

The Chichi pair is up for testing. Just a little under a week later than I promised! Prometheus & Pandora... I'm pretty happy with them... Are they good enough to be the official 1.0 Chichis? Let me know.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/20/2015

The approach norn home when scared instinct needs strengthening and possibly have 'reached peak of smell Norn Home' decrease fear?
Pandora would approach norn home, reach it, still be scared, and turn and run back into the water. (Comfort candle, Workshop, and Magic Words.)
EDIT: She would actually approach norn home, still be scared, and decide approach norn was better.
The training dummy was being a norn, and was in invisible water.
Turning it into an ettin fixed the problem.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/20/2015

Yeah I have the approach norn when afraid instinct as stronger than the one for going home right now... That can be changed... They are the last two genes on the genome if you have access to the C3 genetics kit and want to try tweaking it... (post any results here!) There's also the whole trying to avoid them all clumping in one area thing. They shouldn't be TOO strongly driven to go all the way home every time they get scared, we want them exploring across the ship.

I think it makes sense pretty much as it is, considering there may not necessarily even BE a home in the world they are in for them to go to, not all Norns even follow a home scent, and home may not even be in the right environment... for any aquatics it could be deadly to try and go to the home instead of back underwater with the others when suffocating, though I guess for them that instinct could just be shut off. Banding together also makes sense against a Grendel threat... Also, even if I change the instinct strength, another norn is usually likely to be a lot closer and more noticable than home, so that instinct will be favored a lot even if it is made quite a bit WEAKER than the other one. The strength of the home smell will be a factor that will affect it and change too, depending on the world and what is making the smell.

Two air-breathers underwater at the same time could be in trouble from this instinct, but I don't anticipate that as being very common occurrence; also, from your description of their behavior, it seems to be something they quickly figure out when they see it isn't working (they will fall back to running). Some fear decrease when reaching home might make sense... I do want to avoid compromising their fight and flight reactions too much when they are near home, though, in case they are seriously threatened there (if they lose much fear when they get home, Grendels could just waltz in and start killing them while they stay calm just by huddling there... They wouldn't even be able to get angry effectively to fight back... The way it is, not only can they fight at home, they will also have a tendency to band together when threatened).


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/20/2015

Just a very small amount of fear decrease, so they don't turn around and run RIGHT BACK into the water if the Norn Home is by the water.
Perhaps recommend the Comfort Candles, which are amazing, for owners of CFFs?
Also, they breed OK. Pandora had twin girls.
Hopefully she has a son at some point, instead of MORE twin girls.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/20/2015

I'll play around with that for sure... It makes sense that they should get a little comfort from being home... I just want to make sure it doesn't affect their fight/flight abilities too badly (also it will tend to reinforce the instinct... which may not be that bad, certainly it adds more individual personality development based on circumstances, that Norn will start to prefer going home more, but at worst, it could cause some Norns to become virtual shut-ins...) Tweaking the strength of that instinct may be another way to help them.

About the genders, do you have the fix for the game's seasonal 75/25 gender bias?

EDIT: P.S.: Someone asked about making Chichis prefer gadgets more over machines... They actually find gadgets just as fun as machines, but they only have instincts for things classified as machines (probably designed to get them to use the DS learning machine with no coaxing needed). One way to make them like gadgets more is to throw around some of my Norn Plushie gadget toys. They look like gadgets to them, but they get the feeling of playing with a gadget and a toy at the same time... They should use them randomly (especially if they are young) and quickly learn to like them and all other gadgets. I usually put one and a regular toy in my nurseries and the babies use it right away.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/20/2015

About the gender fix: yes.
It's just luck, I think.
And yeah they should get a little comfort from being home, especially since that'd only be underwater if you put a Comfort Candle there.
Why would you put a Comfort Candle there, after all, unless you had aquatics?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/20/2015

I'm not so much worried about home being underwater, as them losing their fear if the reason they ran home is because they saw a Grendel, say... They really should be stewing with that fear, running when necessary still, and letting it turn into anger naturally, so they can fight it off... Before my changes, fear was ONLY involved in their fight or flight response against Grendels, and it is still closely connected with anger... I have to make sure I'm not compromising that function. Also, a HUGE part of the work in CFF was trying to fix the whole clumping thing that Norns do, especially CFE... I want to avoid driving them all too strongly to one place when it's not necessary...

Still, I think a little fear loss might not be too bad. It bears testing... as does the strength of that instinct... it might be okay a little stronger... I think they still will tend to prefer going to other norns a lot even if that instinct is pretty strong, just because another Norn will almost always be much more noticeable to them than the home (closer things smell exponentially stronger than further ones..)

Also, if you just almost died, and are freaking out because of it, you might instinctively feel like going somewhere safe, but you probably won't stop freaking out about the fact that you almost died just because you got there... you'd probably still be bouncing off your walls for a good bit... adrenaline takes a while to leave the body. Fear already fades naturally for them, it just gets to REALLY high levels when they are about to die from drowning, which leads to that prolonged panic reaction (hmm... a norn that almost drowned and then sees a Grendel will probably end up quite mad and take it out on the grendel once it stops freaking out... "IT WAS ALL YOUR FAULT!!";)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  8/20/2015

I now want to test that. It'd be HILAROUS.
Dunk a Norn in water, have it leave the water, then have a Grendel show up and see if the norn starts beating up the Grendel.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/21/2015  1

Okay, a few more tweaks...

- Strength of running home when scared instinct made stronger and equal to strength of running to friend instinct. Basically, they will now make the decision based just on which they can sense more and any personal preferences shaped by their experience. Getting to a friend is potentially fast relief from fear and good comfort if they can get a consoling pat or two from them... Home should be a slow steady reduction of fear if they get there... leading to the next change:
- Being home now reduces fear... the strength of this effect is tuned pretty low to make sure they can still get afraid of real threats around the home... 3 'I'm Home' stimuli are equal in fear reduction to 1 pat from a creature or the hand, but they continue to get the stimulus if they keep hanging around.
- Hunger Overwhelmsion organ lifespan has been increased dramatically, testing has shown it often dies prematurely... This would be even more of an issue with the longer lifespan these now have... The organ should now actually live as long as the digestive system.

I will make test creatures available on request, but I'd rather not post a bunch of iterations in Adoptions... Anyone interested in testing these latest changes can message me and I can send them creatures or genome files, whichever they prefer. Otherwise, these changes will probably be in the official 1.0 release as is.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  8/27/2015

Been running the 1.0 (agent form) for 46 hours (in fast ticks). So far, I've had one complete population crash, and I keep finding piles of bodies at norn home. Otherwise, they seem to be doing fine. :)

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/27/2015

How are they spreading out in general?

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  8/27/2015

I've had a few explorers. :)

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  8/27/2015

I think i might have to just axe that egg hoarding instinct too, it's a gizmo trait I added to my Evos... I'm not sure about it for the normal breeds though. I have a feeling it might be a little confusing to ones that happen to already be home and pick up an egg thats lying around there (and they will be getting a lot of egg stim there with all those eggs in one spot... could be the reason ettins are made blind to gadgets when they are in their home)

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Firefly

Firefly



  9/23/2015

I have a question, do all of the current CFF breeds up for download no longer have the egg hoarding instincts like you mentioned? Also, do they have this fix:
"Creatures who have learned any way to satisfy drives lack nearly all the curiosity of Norns in previous games to play with new objects and try new actions. (Fixed. Found key rules in brain that determine the randomness factor of new thoughts and amped it up. Future testing may show a better balance for these rules, but the tweaks as is seem to be very effective)"
Or was that just the Evo Norns? I'd love for all of my Norns to be like this.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  9/23/2015

For now that is just the new Evo norns and the ones based on them (for now I think just the Pepper Norns)... But I definitely think it might be a good thing to add as a standard... I really do like the behavior these changes give them, they aren't particularly crazy or stupid with it, but they do act more interestingly, and you definitely do have to worry a lot more about inexperienced ones messing with beasts and weeds and detritus, and stingers and stuff, like the earlier games... I think it brings back more of the original flavor Norns had.

Also, I did remove the egg hoarding behavior from 1.0s... But it's not that they were attracted to eggs at all, they actually had no instincts regarding them... They just got homesick if they happen to pick them up, so that would make them want to bring any eggs they hold to a nest. They also have a stimulus reflex to want to drop anything they are carrying when they get home. In testing with first gens, I didn't notice homesickness really getting out of control with them in general or staying built up... It seemed to be working as intended... But any Norns can mutate to not lose homesickness when they get home though, and that can cause carrying eggs for ones with this behavior, or being pregnant for any, to be a problem (these still should have been able to eat anyway even with such a mutation... they would forget it temporarily when hungry as long as their new organ is working, so it shouldn't have affected their survival ability too much...) Potentially this kind of mutation could become dominant in a population too, given how much faster their eggs would tend to hatch, giving you a bunch of stay at home Norns. I thought it was best to just remove it just in case, since it wasn't in original breeds, just Gizmos, and doesn't seem to really be a direct improvement.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Firefly

Firefly



  9/23/2015

I feel like it would be a good idea to add that in to the other CFFs! Norns having their own personalities is something I really love seeing, and most people probably wouldn't be agaisnt norns being more creative and experimental.

I want to start using CFF norns, but I worry about having a world of them that's gotten far in the generations and then another update to the genome comes out, and I'm stuck with all of my norns having the older version. Although I could mix Evos in with them and hope they pass on their creativity genes, hmm...

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  9/23/2015  1

Yeah, well, that's why I kind of had the 1.0s set as the stopping point, so they would have a consistent version to release breeds at, instead of just the test adoption norn thing I was doing while developing it... Then I could just work on converting CFF versions of all the breeds from that; but this new discovery with the brains and the changes to my Evo breed seem to have worked out really well... a lot of people seem to think they are worth adding to CFF.

I might just have to redo the CFF ChiChi and CFF free breed pack agents to include them and then it will just be standard in the rest of the official breeds... making them think more 'realistically' like older games WAS part of my original goal with CFF... and I think you're right... more random thoughts definitely seems to make each of them develop more of an individual personality, each one might try different things first and start to like doing those more. Also I'll probably make a little article in the development section about how to make the changes. It's pretty simple as long as you are in a genetics editor that allows you to make changes to SV rules.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  9/23/2015

:D
Does that include the 130 reaction?
Because that reaction's often hilarious.

 
Firefly

Firefly



  9/23/2015

Okay, I'm excited to start playing with them once you're finished! Do you have an idea of how quickly you could add those changes to the ChiChis and free breeds?
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  9/23/2015

Probably within the next few days... It's not that hard to just redo all those genomes at once, since they really just differ in appearance genes, so I can just recompile all the new agents in a matter of an hour or two. And yeah, I don't think the 130 reaction hurts, especially since people are already making agents that work with it. It's actually helping me understand how their perception and brains work too...

I still think there's a key there in a rule I can add somewhere around there that will stop them from getting semi-permanent obsessions like those that you see with Eat Elevator syndrome or some of the more extreme 130 reactions that act a lot like it. It really seems like a neuron or dendrite signal somewhere is getting stuck at maximum, and then other thoughts or attempts to re-focus attention don't work, they lose to that obsession when there is no real version of an object the creature really wants in range to let it change its attention and let the neuron or dendrite get cleared. I think if i could make these signals degrade slowly, it should fix the whole problem.

For example, I had one get obsessed with an imaginary bug after eating some amethyst berries, and putting a real bug near them or waiting for them to get very hungry didn't do anything to stop it (they didn't focus attention on the real bug at all even though they were talking about doing things with a bug), they only snapped out of it when I dropped a spray of food in front of them... so they were apparently really trying to think about food after a while, but they could not focus on it while they were still also thinking about that bug that was apparently just that much more stimulating than any scents of food they smelled.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  9/23/2015

Will you give chemical 130 a name, or leave it as is? :)

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  9/23/2015

Hmm, haven't thought of a good name... I'd be open to suggestions though. 'Tryptamine' possibly... as a real-world analog that is seen in the brains of mammals, occurring naturally on its own as a neurotransmitter or neuromodulator, and the base for a whole class of related biologically active 'tryptamines', many of which can have similar effects to chemical 130. This group also includes many other important neurotransmitters and hormones. Since Chemical 130's action is programmed into the brain in these, it actually makes sense for it to be related to a brain chemical like this one.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Yme

Yme



  9/24/2015

Played around with the CFF Norns for a few days now. They seem a little bit harder to breed, but I might just have bin unlucky with the few Norns i hatched... Not that it matters though, as I sort of like it when I don't find millions of new eggs every time I check in on them.

I found that, as with the CFE Norns, the adult female Norns have a odd walk when moveing across streight terrain.
This happens in all adult females, both CFE and CFF. Could you look into it? It allmost looks like every third step turns into a dance :P

Allso, will you be putting this genome in all the Norn breeds, including the ones with special genomes, so they are updated without loosing their special traits, like the hardmans anger or the Bondis chill mood?

I'll have to take a look at the Evo Norns aswell. They seem awesome!

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  9/24/2015

Yeah, they are harder to breed on purpose, the default ones were a bit crazy with their breeding, these have more realistic cycles and behavior. They should still maintain a population well... A few of the test norn pairs that were put up for adoption, and the first (0.4) version of the Evos actually were a bit too hard to breed. Yeah, I'll check the gaits and poses... It might just have to do with them feeling frisky though... females can get friendly on their own just from being anywhere around males when they are in the right part of their cycles, but males need to be pushed by a female to get frisky. See if they still do it alone or with only other females in the room.

Yes, the plan is to convert all the base and mall breeds and keep their traits intact... The unique breeds all require a good amount of work for their conversions though, since they are all so different from the base genome... The 1.0 hardman conversion is very close to done... Bondis, Treehugger, Magma, and Toxic are not yet, and the C3 basic genome that will let me put out Bengals, Bruins, and Civets also needs to be finished.

If you like the unique mall breeds, there are the Pepper Norns, which are a CFF breed based on the Magma Norns, but also with the 1.0 Evo brain changes... If you want some to play with before I finish the 1.0 version, there are a couple of test CFF Hardmen (0.6 version) you can adopt, named 'Bonnie & Clyde'... they have most of the CFF features, as well as the rest of their hardman personalities... The CFF fixes make them a lot better and smarter at dealing with their anger (though the calm balm and the mecha-grendel toy are still very helpful), and they seem to be even better fighters with them. I really like how they came out, and the 1.0 ones will be even better. There are also test CFF (0.7) Treehuggers you can adopt named "John & Yoko"... They have their treehugger personalities, but also seem to be better at dealing with their emotional issues with crowding, and are a bit more sociable, though they still don't mind being alone. They like the Soothing Herbal Tea agent I made too, it helps them a bit with stress and their weaker immune systems.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Yme

Yme



  9/26/2015

Awesome, evol! Thanks for doing this. Can't wait for the finished results, with Norns that comprehend their world a bit better.

I forgot to ask, will you be releasing an updated version of the gen-files for grendels and ettins? Would be nice to have a world with all three types of creatures, without the grendels and ettins breeding like crazy rabbits, and filling the creature limit lol

Where can I adopt the testNorns from?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  9/26/2015

if you go to the Adoptions section in Downloads, and search for 'CFF', it should show all of the test adoption pairs, as well as some other creatures with CFF genetics people put up... the test versions I put out come in male & female baby pairs, and come with their genome files as well.

I am definitely looking into the Grendel and Ettin genomes when I'm done converting the paid mall Norn breeds. I do have a CFF Grendel breed that was adapted from the CFF 0.6 Hardman Norn genome, and takes genetics from both banshee and jungle grendels, called 'Dark Banshee', you can find them in breeds, but like the Hardmen, they are extremely aggressive and tough as nails, and I can't guarantee they won't breed a lot (they should be less prolific than most Grendels, but they still can get frisky if they aren't preoccupied with anger, which luckily isn't that often, and they don't actually ever seek each other out for companionship either, so they are unlikely to have anything but chance contact with each other most of the time unless there are already a lot of them...)

I also have a male Ettin I put up for adoption recently called 'Uptight Beam'... He's spliced ettin and CFF Evo Norn DNA, so he could be a little weird, but he's smart and about the closest I've made to a CFF Ettin... I think there is an Ettin breed someone else made that uses an adapted version of some CFF norn genome too... Search for 'CFF' in breeds and you should find all the ones that use any kind of CFF genome.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Yme

Yme



  9/26/2015

I'll check all of them out, thanks :D

I've played around a bit more now, and was thinking it might be cool if the pregnancies lasted longer, like they did in C1.
As it stands now, the Norns can barely get from the ground level of the Norn terrarium, to the second level with the Norn home, before laying her egg.

I think it would be cool if pregnancies lasted 10 to 15 minutes. That might turn out to be way to long, but at least long enough that a birth seems like a bit more of an event than it currently does.

 

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