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Norn expression loop?   
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/4/2014

I just got the CFE norn pack, and made a world starting with one of each of the types.

It all started out okay, but now, they seem to be stuck in this endless expression loop over one norn who seems to be quite unpopular... Automatic Yam. Now my entire room is filled with them constantly saying '... dislike Automatic Yam', over and over... While she was in there, Automatic Yam was yelling back at them 'Automatic Yam dislike ... ' at whoever said it last... all except one norn, Measly Tub, who kept saying he likes her, but she seemed to pay no attention to him, being more involved with arguing back at the other norns.

The fight started to get physical, so I figured the best thing would just be to take her out of the room and put her in the other norn area of the ship, along with her admirer... but all the other norns are still having a huge 'Dislike Automatic Yam' rally in the other room, even with her not around to yell back at them, and will not shut up. They just keep expressing their dislike for her over and over, it's driving me crazy. I'm also not sure what she could have done to make them all not like her... other than being the first one to hatch...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko
Germany  


  3/4/2014

For that reason I turn off voices (or would turn off, my sound for DS is somehow completely gone right now...).
The only CAOS command I can find right now makes the creatures express their opinion about another creature instead of changing it, but I doubt that it'd be useful in your situation :P

Perhaps someone else know how to reset the FORF lobe or something like that...


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
C-Rex
Lollipop Lord

C-Rex
United Kingdom  

 visit C-Rex's website: The Norn Nebula
  3/4/2014

Poor Automatic Yam. :( I've had a similar thing before, but never with "dislike", only the words 'love' or 'like'. xD

Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything outside you want, but whether there is anything inside that you have not yet unpacked.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/4/2014

Yeah, it was weird for me too, I'm used to norns liking everyone, I guess that's the new friend/foe behavior with the CFE norns at work... I got the feeling they were a little crowded in the room i started them in, maybe that has something to do with it... After enough retreating from her, or getting their crowded drives going up when she approached, it must have started turning into dislike.

If that's the case, most of those norns are probably on pretty unfriendly terms with each other... I guess she just happened to be the one someone mentioned first, getting this endless loop going... probably just from being around all of them the longest. She definitely didn't seem to like most of them very much either, considering how she was yelling back at them... At least she had one loyal friend standing up for her...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  3/4/2014  1

CFE norns can get quite crowded - try using the offline portals to connect your rooms, or the dummy portals as a non-moving toy.

My TCR Norns
 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/4/2014

In terms of norns being stuck expressing...

I'm using CFE genomes as well and often, my norns stay in the same spot for virtually forever (well, until I hit them, and that's just a temporary solution) and complain. When they don't express, they lie around and just stare holes in the air instead of actually doing anything about their need. Like pushing that damn toy right next to them when they're bored out of their minds.

When said norns are left unattended, especially hardmans, pretty much every time I take a look at a screen, at least half of the norns visible stand around and state they're being angry instead of interacting with their environment and each other. They keep dying out because they don't reproduce since they're too busy stamping their feet.

I often get said like-dislike loop as well, often with the hand thrown in for good measure if there's noone else to talk about. Does expressing fulfill some sort of a need for creatures or why can't they stop doing it instead of potentially starving to death?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/4/2014

Zweitausend wrote:


...<snip>

I often get said like-dislike loop as well, often with the hand thrown in for good measure if there's noone else to talk about. Does expressing fulfill some sort of a need for creatures or why can't they stop doing it instead of potentially starving to death?



I know that expressing reduces a norn's anger by a decent amount, and their crowding by a little too...

Although, CFE norns have an edit that makes them not realize that speaking reduces crowdedness, or they would probably get into (and stay in) loops even easier... hearing a creature speak makes a norn less angry, but more crowded, so making them not realize that expressing reduces their crowdedness should mean they eventually stop being angry and wanting to talk, since they lose anger both from speaking and hearing another creature speak... hearing a lot of talking must make them feel very crowded though, but they shouldn't think that talking will help with that (though it might explain them not trying to eat or reduce boredom, if being crowded is the biggest thing on their minds).

There may be some feedback since crowding can also make some breeds angry, and some kinds of stress can make adrenaline in a norn's system, which will really multiply how fast their anger increases. But none of this should make them want to talk more than other norns, If anything it should make them want to talk less since they aren't feeling the reduction in crowdedness...

All I can think of is maybe their new brain lobes involving friend/foe relationships makes think about their relationships a lot more than other norns... If they are constantly thinking about relationships, they are probably very stimulated by hearing opinions about them, which must make them want to talk about them anyway even though it doesn't reduce any drive they can notice once their anger is gone,

I don't know everything about all the edits though, there could be some other stuff going on in their brains, some of the edits are pretty complicated since they get into the actual programming of the brains and not just manipulating drives and chemicals. Maybe something else is making them angry or keeping them that way though, maybe even making them think they are angry when they aren't... one of the edits makes them remember how to reduce drives better, so they would probably figure out pretty fast that having a gabfest is a great way to try and reduce their anger. I'll whip out the biochemistry kit and see if I can see anything weird going on with their drives or chemicals while they do it.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/4/2014

Malkin wrote:
CFE norns can get quite crowded - try using the offline portals to connect your rooms, or the dummy portals as a non-moving toy.



Thanks, I will try that, I did notice in the middle of all the chatter some of them saying they were crowded and others telling them to try pushing a portal,


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Ghosthande
Prodigal Sock

Ghosthande
United States  

 visit Ghosthande's website: Breeders Beware
  3/5/2014

Talking about whether they like or dislike another Norn is compulsive, not behavioral. They don't even really think about doing it--they're scripted to automatically answer each other's "gossip". But since Norns can't understand each other's Bibble, and feel no compulsion to answer what they can't understand, I just don't teach most of mine to talk. :)

If you have selective learning tools, eg. that only teach a certain class of words, that can also help; if Norns don't learn the words "like", "dislike", "love" or "hate" they can't get caught in loops. That might be a good idea for a new agent, actually... :\



 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/5/2014

Ghosthande wrote:
Talking about whether they like or dislike another Norn is compulsive, not behavioral. They don't even really think about doing it--they're scripted to automatically answer each other's "gossip". But since Norns can't understand each other's Bibble, and feel no compulsion to answer what they can't understand, I just don't teach most of mine to talk. :)

If you have selective learning tools, eg. that only teach a certain class of words, that can also help; if Norns don't learn the words "like", "dislike", "love" or "hate" they can't get caught in loops. That might be a good idea for a new agent, actually... :\



The automatic answering I get... but picking who they talk about in the first place is something I don't fully understand, and non-CFE norns don't seem to stay in these loops nearly as long... it's like the CFEs have something that is making them say these things on their own more too... also, it seems that non-CFEs will suppress the need to answer gossip if they have just made that gossip. CFE's do actually seem to keep thinking about the target after they answer it, and will say it again and again, and pay attention to the target if it is close (if you have a group of CFE's gossiping, take one out of the room... you'll notice it repeats the phrase several more times before stopping, without anyone else saying it...)

In the case of Automatic Yam, when one was close to her doing something like 'retreat norn' or 'hit norn', even with a bunch of norns by her, they would pick her as the 'it' norn they were paying attention to while this chatting was going on, even though she didn't seem to be doing anything special to get their attention, besides talking like everyone else... And a big slapfight started between her and the norns right near her that were complaining about her a little bit after this started too.

They do have pretty extensive extra brain scripting to help them remember and reinforce friend-foe relationships, after all... The gossiping action itself might be scripted into the game, but they definitely seem to have something extra going on helping it along (maybe the brain edits are making them hear it in their heads somehow, or rather, making the script think they heard it)...

Making them forget those words is an interesting idea though... might be worthwhile to figure out.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  3/5/2014

Perhaps the reason why it was scripted in the first place was because the non-CFE brains didn't say 'like' or 'dislike' on their own? Is it possible to find out where the compulsion is scripted and to make it optional?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/5/2014

It's my understanding that the compulsion to answer those opinions is in the game engine itself, not in the CFE edits, so it would be hard to make it optional. What makes the first one state their opinion in the first place is a little less clear...

I have heard norns without the genome saying they like some other norns, or love, or dislike grendels, etc... and then others answer with their opinions, they just don't get stuck in these loops forever like the CFE seem to... A common thing with non-CFE norns is to have one that is a little frisky or lonely walk up to a grendel, say they like it, keep trying to play with it, and then stick around long enough to get beaten to death before they even manage to decide they dislike it.

The change to friend or foe behavior in CFE creatures is an extra lobe that is supposed to make them better at changing and remembering their opinions about other creatures to avoid stuff like that, and start them off as neutral instead of just always liking everyone at first. I know it also kind of ramps up their perceived effect of interactions with other creatures, and they get lonely or crowded a little easier... but I'm just not sure exactly how this interacts with the game engine and the whole opinion gossip thing...

The other major brain change in CFE is a drive reinforcement lobe that helps them remember and reinforce what actions best help fulfill their drives, because non-CFE norns tend to forget, especially after sleeping, and then go back to trying random stuff all the time. I don't think this lobe is involved, but since hearing another creature talk reduces anger in norns, and hearing a bunch at once would really be the fastest way to get it down, it's even possible that this lobe lets a norn figure out and remember that the best way to reduce anger is just focusing on another creature and exploiting whatever feature of the game that makes it express its opinion of that creature, just so it gets to hear all the answers. If this is the case, then some answering norns would probably notice at that point that something feels really good, and if they can figure out how to keep it going, possibly by means of this new lobe recording and reinforcing whatever is going on in their brains when they are answering, they almost certainly would.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/7/2014

I've been watching Automatic Yam, and she may be deserving of her reputation among the norns... she is quite mean, and even after i moved her into a much more spacious room, still likes to smack everyone else randomly no matter what I do to try and get her to stop,

She fought me trying to get her to eat in her new home and
kept trying go back to her old room with all the other norns who hated her... She was being very persistent and stubborn, so I finally let her, and as soon as she walked back in her old room, the other norns there all immediately started a chant against her, She seemed to be smart enough to get out of there and go back the bigger room after a few minutes of yelling at them and stealing some of their bramboo... I guess she really just wanted to curse them out one more time.

Even though I try to be nice to her, she has started taking to saying she dislikes me every time she sees the hand, and she curses out or slaps almost every norn that crosses her path. If I didn't know she was a first-gen bruin, I'd say she had grendelish blood..., the norns in her new much bigger room have just started a chant against her too... How one norn can terrorize a whole c3/ds docked world i don't know...

The best one, is now she has a worshipper named dashing prison that keeps following her around, telling her how much she dislikes her, but following her like a slave... she pays her no mind other than to curse her back once in a while and go about her business... they have a nice dysfunctional relationship... "Hey! I don't like you..." "Yeah, I don't like you either..." "Wait, come back here! I hate you more!"

Ok, now she just said she liked a guy, he looked up, then she sexy walked up to him, and suddenly started beating the crap out of him.... Oh Yam... "Hey big boy, you look like a stud... let's get together... come on over here..." <knee to the groin> The funny thing is she is actually one of my best breeding females, she had at least 4 eggs already. I guess she knows how to treat 'em...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/7/2014

What kind of a breed is this norn of yours?

I've had huge problems especially with Siamese norns. They seem to love to kick the everloving ... out of others.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/7/2014

She's a bruin CFEm, first gen, but the group of eggs i started with included all c3/ds CFEm variants, including the mall breeds except toxic.. she may have picked up some habits from siamese or the hardman (though the hardman really stayed away from her after a while... he decided he didn't like her at all and was pretty vocal about it), and more disturbingly, after he had some interactions with her, I had a hard time getting him to hit things when he was angry... I think he may have tried hitting her and really got his ass handed to him so he has an aversion to hitting anything now... he just yells about being angry and looks mad.

He won't so much as lay a finger on grendels either, no matter how much they hit him or how mad he is when they do it or what i say to him, even tried a slap or two to change his mind about whatever he was thinking about rather than hitting them, but no change... really weird... he's first gen so i know he can't be very mutated... he's gotta still be full of the hardman instincts and stuff to hit grendels and not get scared, and he hears the other norns telling him to hit the grendel, so his pacifism has to have been learned (and pretty traumatically I'd think).

I have a new genome I'm going to try in a new world, I made some CFE genomes that just silenced all stim/reactions and instincts that involve expressing or hearing other norns speak (i just made all of the genes involved dormant). This should produce some very reflective norns that don't care about talking... they have a slight benefit in that they won't get crowded from hearing other creatures speak, but they don't get anything out of it either, and should feel no particular compulsion to talk on their own, ever, except for when the game makes them respond to the hand or other creatures, though I'd think they can still learn to like to talk if they get a reward for it. They still have the CFE genome with the friend or foe reinforcement and all the other edits, although without speaking and hearing speech helping to vent their quick tempers they may end up a little more violent, I have to see.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/7/2014

evolnemesis wrote:
He won't so much as lay a finger on grendels either, no matter how much they hit him or how mad he is when they do it or what i say to him...



If you use DS or if your world is docked, I'd probably just lock him into the workshop with the dummy and turn that into a grendel after removing all the distractions. See if he does anything. That way, he's not at risk of getting beaten to death.


I'd love to see how that edited genome of yours works out! I tried to get grendels to breed without me interfering at all, and they just kept complaining about being angry and ended up actually dying out since they were too busy expressing to actually reproduce.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/8/2014

Yeah, I definitely want to see how these new norns behave, to see if they will still express opinions about creatures on their own, and if they can still get stuck in these loops... This genome should let me see if drives are really at the root of CFE's odd loop tendency, and if I'm right, it might even help find a cure for 'eat elevator' syndrome too...

I have a theory that the huge drop in drives a norn usually gets from hearing a large group of creatures answering, or rather being forced by the game to answer... especially combined with the drive reinforcement changes in CFE, might be biasing their actions and making them try to trigger and stay in these loops by sitting there concentrating on 'self' or 'it' until the game script makes them express, or they see someone that triggers a friend/foe reaction which lets them express... Their instincts tell them they get a reward and a drop in anger for expressing when their attention is on themselves,.. Then when they are concentrating on themselves or any other creature, express, and hear a bunch of answers, they get a HUGE drop in boredom loneliness and anger...

That might make them more likely to want to just keep thinking about themselves all the time, just because of how rewarding it is when it happens... Even if game scripts make them express and they can't control triggering the reward, they are still also associating all this reward with thinking about themselves... so their brains may think, 'if i think about myself for long enough, I will hit the jackpot...' This might even explain why they get that 'eat elevator' thing and sit there staring at themselves for long periods of time... (so, if i'm correct, they get self-absorbed and think about eating elevators, because they want to be famous...)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/8/2014

Just started my experiment, so far I'm liking these guys... i hatched 2, a male bengal and a female civet... they do talk a decent amount actually, even express like and dislike, but they seem to talk about what they are thinking and doing more, rather than just complaints and opinions, I also think answering other norns expressions may not be scripted in the game engine after all. These two actually seem to ignore each others talking.. they don't give each other advice even when they hear the other complain, and don't echo or answer them talking about anyone.. they do say they are happy or like the hand or like each other or love each other when they feel like it though... they are pretty chatty still, actually.

I have seen them complain about being sleepy, cold, or bored, and talk to each other once, but they are acting quite smart, no loops so far, we will see with more of them though... i saw one say it liked the other but the other didn't answer back, and they are being great about doing what they need without ever staring at themselves or complaining constantly.. they seem to decide right away what they want to do about things rather than complain, and often just announce what they are doing about it... we'll see when there are more norns, though, The two are inseparable right now and like each other and the hand a lot too, they both say they liked the hand, especially after i give them a tickle, but they say it only once, and separately. One just said it liked me, and the other said it was going to push food, instead of just echoing the other one... then the other one said it was sleepy, and the first one didn't answer back at all because it was looking at a toy.

EDIT: Hmm, i was wrong about them never answering each other... they had a baby, and the baby came up and said it was hungry and sleepy and the mother gave it advice right away.. hmm father did just now too, though the parents do seem to give advice separately, and only when they feel like it, not the all norns answer every complaint at once like you usually see. that's odd though, i never saw the parents tell each other what to do when they complained, but now they answer their child. I'm really really liking these guys... definitely no looping going on at all... One just said, 'Quiet haze love quiet year' and quiet year just said 'quiet year very patient',. and nobody else answered. They still express opinions, but they definitely do NOT seem to be compelled to answer them... They do give advice sometimes, though it seems to be only if the adviser actually decides to pay attention to whoever is complaining, if they are busy or interested at all in something else they will not stop to answer... they also don't seem to have any extra violent tendencies like i feared... if anything they seem friendlier (sooo many eggs from this first couple... i guess kisspopping and tickling is another good way to get rid of anger for them...)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/8/2014

That does indeed sound very promising, nice work!

I wonder if this could resolve the problem of my hardman norns expressing their anger and not doing anything about it. While it's nice that they usually don't take out their aggressions on other norns (grendels and the occasional ettin do tend to get unlucky, though), it's really frustrating to watch them stamp their feet for minutes at a time without doing anything else.

I wonder what they'd be doing otherwise... Beating up toys and gadgets? Other norns? Who knows...

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/8/2014  1

Zweitausend wrote:
That does indeed sound very promising, nice work!

I wonder if this could resolve the problem of my hardman norns expressing their anger and not doing anything about it. While it's nice that they usually don't take out their aggressions on other norns (grendels and the occasional ettin do tend to get unlucky, though), it's really frustrating to watch them stamp their feet for minutes at a time without doing anything else.

I wonder what they'd be doing otherwise... Beating up toys and gadgets? Other norns? Who knows...



Yeah, I noticed that with my cfe hardman too... hardmans get angry more, and tend to anger instead of fear when hit. that chatting and hearing a bunch of answers reduces anger so much, that the little guys are probably thinking of nothing but announcing how angry they are so they get all that advice and sympathy...

Like other norns, they have an instinct that is telling them that looking at themselves and expressing will help reduce anger... if they do it once and notice that it instantly reduces anger by like 60, from the combination of his complaining and 4 norns around telling him to go hit a grendel, and probably the hand yelling at him to hit grendel too at the same time, that would be a pretty big stimulus for them, much bigger than the little reduction he gets from actually HITTING the grendel.., The attention from a group of other creatures, or even just hearing them talk, is much more stimulating than anything he could try and do to reduce the drive himself... I think I'm going to call this the fame complex...

"Hey everybody! I'm really angry over here! <stamp> Look! I'm really mad... <stamp stamp> Everyone tell me i should kick the crap out of some grendels! Hey! I don't like this over here! Everyone agree with me! hey YOU! I don't like you! What do you guys think about that?"

I'll hatch some hardmans with the edits and see what happens.

I think it's probable then that some finer tweaking can be done to this, it seems they should like fame, and hearing other creatures speak, a little bit, after all... it just shouldn't feel so much better than actually DOING stuff for themselves that they do nothing but drool on themselves thinking about anything that will start conversation, and then stay complaining, or talking in loops just to hear each other talk...

The main culprit i think is actually the stimulus norns get from hearing others speak... the good effects on drives should probably be lowered A LOT (to like 1/5th or 1/10th of what they are now) if you keep them, and you can definitely keep the crowded response, or even make it bigger, As for the swearing instinct and stimulus, those might be okay, since they don't get multiplied by all the creatures around, but could probably stand to be lowered too.

Though so far, these guys really don't seem to have any bad side-effects from not having ANY of those traits at all, if anything they seem much smarter and more expressive and don't seem to get stuck in ruts. They say what they are thinking about or doing more often, they still mention their drives and feelings, they just don't feel compelled to answer other norns' chatter, they only do it if they aren't doing anything else and decide to pay attention to the norn that's talking.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/8/2014

evolnemesis wrote:
"Hey everybody! I'm really angry over here! <stamp> Look! I'm really mad... <stamp stamp> Everyone tell me i should kick the crap out of some grendels! Hey! I don't like this over here! Everyone agree with me! hey YOU! I don't like you! What do you guys think about that?"



Brilliant! I just love it.

That makes sense, I suppose. I'm really looking forward to what you can find out.
Those norns, with all their quirks and flaws have really grown on me, but that constant anger expressing makes it kind of pointless to leave a group of them unattended since they'll hardly reproduce at all.

 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  3/8/2014

If you want a wolfling run, you could just get rid of the learning machine...
 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/8/2014

ylukyun wrote:
If you want a wolfling run, you could just get rid of the learning machine...



Simply not teaching them to speak doesn't really help, unfortunately. They don't give each other advice anymore, but keep complaining regardless, talking nornish.

At least that's how it is in my case.

 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  3/8/2014

So the loop still happens even without words for "like" and "dislike"? Interesting, I didn't think that was possible.
 
Zweitausend

Zweitausend
Germany  


  3/8/2014

Not quite, I think we're talking about a different kind of loop here.

What I mean is the norns expressing their current emotion ( "Nornicus Maximus extremely angry" ) over and over again without doing anything else anymore, unless you do stuff like dropping food right in front of them while they're hungry, or beating them into submission. Both are temporary solutions, though, and usually don't work for more than a couple of minutes. Then the foot stamping and endless whining starts over.

To do that, they don't need to speak, obviously. They just express themselves in nornish, along the lines of "eem exmly baa", while standing around doing absolutely nothing else while they're getting bored out of their minds.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/8/2014

Zweitausend wrote:

Brilliant! I just love it.

That makes sense, I suppose. I'm really looking forward to what you can find out.
Those norns, with all their quirks and flaws have really grown on me, but that constant anger expressing makes it kind of pointless to leave a group of them unattended since they'll hardly reproduce at all.



I edited some hardmans... but their genes were interesting, they had the 'swearing relieves anger' instinct suppressed already in their genome, the stimulus was still there though, reducing anger and crowding, but like other cfe, they don't notice the reduction in crowding from talking, and also, hardmans don't seem to be able to lose as much anger this way, only about half what other creatures do... i suppressed it anyway, as for the stimulus for hearing other creatures speak, for hardmans it reduces fear and loneliness, but actually slightly INCREASES their anger (most norns it reduces anger boredom and loneliness)... so they definitely weren't getting a reduction in anger from hearing the other norns respond, just a reduction in fear and loneliness (insecure hardmans maybe?)

Because their original genome is so different from the others with a lot less reward for speaking/hearing, the new hardmans didn't seem too different from their original genome at first, and started stamping for a bit, having a little tantrum, worrying me, but they snapped out of it on their own and started acting well adjusted... they made me feel better when one saw a grendel and charged right at it and they battled, he got somewhat hurt and backed off, but so did the grendel, then he was really mad, and he said so a couple of times, but wasn't about to chase the grendel after that fight, so he complained for a bit about how mad he was while slinking away... but the grendel came back, as soon as it started getting close he got up some nerve and went right up to it and beat it down.

So far these hardmans never seem to be stuck complaining, though they do still complain when they are really mad, and they are really mad a lot. But they don't hesitate to do something about it... just complaining about it doesn't give any reward to these guys.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/8/2014

It seems like they can still loop with my edits, but the norns involved all seem to have to be fairly content and want to focus on each other... once drives go back up they seem to stop... norns not paying direct attention to other norns won't answer, and they will not ignore other concerns to stay in such a loop, an improvement at least I think...

I think I can safely say creatures are compelled to answer when their brain gets a 'it is speaking'... 'it' being whatever they are paying attention to/thinking about. And this is the only time they have to answer, they need to actively pay attention to the speaker.., (with the possible exception of the hand telling them to express or saying 'what')... and also understand what was said well enough to formulate a response, but unfortunately, norns do think of each other as pretty interesting, so even without drives making them want to express or hear speech, they often want to pay attention to other speaking norns, especially if the speaker is someone they have strong feelings about, because then they are likely to already be focused on that norn in the process of trying to approach/retreat from them.

As far as expressing in the first place, not just answering, it seems they have to do it any time they are focused on themselves and also think about a drive or friend/foe relationship... their genetics compel them to focus on themselves if any drives get high, while a high drive forces them to think about that drive, and they also think about friend/foe relationships practically any time a creature approaches or interacts with them. So, eem may be a little lonely, thinking 'approach norn', see bibble, upon approach, see that they like her, start feeling a crowded after a while, and that makes eem look at himself and express the strongest thing on his mind: 'eem like bibble', or 'eem crowded', probably as he gets the thought telling them 'hit' or 'retreat from' norn... but by then bibble answers if she was also thinking about him... he is paying attention to her if he is actively retreating from her, so he (and any other norns looking at bibble) answer her, and then any norns paying attention to them, for example, any that are retreating from or approaching them, answer them, their talking can still draw attention too, and so on, until the norns stop focusing on each other (probably when they get hungry/bored/quiescent).

So, even with my genome, a pack of happy norns with nothing better to do could very well have a little gab-in, at least until they all decide to do something else... Mine seem to be a lot less likely to get into them, and they don't seem to last nearly as long, luckily... I think I will try putting back in just an increase in crowded for the 'heard other creatures speak' stimulus, maybe even add some boredom, and see what happens. The only problem is that these drives often just make them want to pay attention to other norns more, not less... retreating from or hitting a creature helps with crowding, and there are lots of fun things to do with other norns if one is bored...

They don't seem to need the swearing instinct or stimulus at all though, they have no problem wanting to express themselves on their own. As far as 'eat elevator'... I have not seen one of my norns get stuck staring at themselves yet, or get stuck complaining either... they get no kick from complaining or the response now, so while they still will complain with high drives, they seem to be driven more strongly to try to do something about it rather than just complain.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  3/8/2014

Have you considered uploading a couple of norns at this stage as examples?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/8/2014

Sure, I'd love to. I have some babies a few generations in, and I can easily make some first-gens from my base genome with the genetics kit's egg injector. They really breed like crazy, they are pretty nice and friendly and don't get crowded easily.

The edits are simple too if you want to apply them to your own breeds and see how they react... there are only 3 genes to suppress, one instinct and 2 stimulus genes, (and like I said, in hardmans the instinct was already suppressed)

Here are the edits so far for any gengineers...:
stimulus 18 - heard creature speak -suppress
instinct 13 - shout and swear if angry -suppress
stimulus 56 - swearing lets off steam -suppress

I'm going to mess around a little more with a tweaked variation putting back the stimulus for hearing creatures, but taking away the good effects, maybe make the bad effects worse or different... see if I can get them to want to actually start to avoid paying attention to anyone talking, so if a norn they are paying attention to talks, they still answer if they understand, because the game makes them respond to creatures they are paying attention to, but they will quickly start to get bored/annoyed with paying attention to other creatures, and want to turn away to do something else if they keep chattering, like sleep, eat, or play with a toy,... as if they get sick of hearing the other creatures' inane statements and complaints... 'Yeah, yeah, eem like bibble, everyone loves bibble... whatever... yawn... go away, I have something to do over this way...' Might be hard to get to work right, but it should really discourage expression loops...

I think when I have them where I want I'm going to call them Librarian Norns. I wish I was good with agents, I think it would be cool to give them a bookshelf with books they can pick up and read to reduce boredom.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/9/2014

I have a new variety, based on the chichi genome, that has the heard other creatures speak stimulus give them a small amount of fear and pain, and a decent amount of crowding... I got rid of the swearing instinct and stimulus... (My idea is that they are used to living in quiet places, or have to hide a lot, so they have extra sensitive ears and are kind of jumpy... I probably should put similar stims in for them hearing any kind of noise... It would be funny to watch one activate the radio or something, then get startled by the noise and run away)

They are still very sociable and gentle, really cute acting still, and okay with talking, a couple that like each other might even say so to each other, they don't mind someone talking once in a while around them, and still hang out with other norns even if they talk once in a while, but a crowd talking or someone talking nonstop freaks them out, and they start running away talking about 'run grendel' , 'retreat grendel', 'retreat something'... the little guys actually seem to get spooked and think noises are grendels!

I think I will call these 'Jumpy Chichis', and work on them a little more...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/10/2014

Malkin wrote:
Have you considered uploading a couple of norns at this stage as examples?



Hmm, I joined that site and tried uploading a few (2 hardmans, a bengal, and a civet) a couple of days ago, and I don't see them, I also didn't get any response about them either, maybe I did something wrong with my submission? It says they are on the submission queue still.

EDIT: just put one up for adoption here... a female hardman... looks like the others need better pictures of them, that may be what is holding them up there... I'll go re-import them and take some better pics.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  3/10/2014

For those interested, one of my enhanced Hardman females, Betty, is now up on the adoption page... she's first gen, and uses the straight CFEm hardman genome with my edits suppressing the swearing and hearing creature speech stimuli & instincts... I really am noticing the norns with my edits not getting that self-staring or stuck complaining at all. It's also interesting how they will not answer just every norn, only ones they want to, and only if not busy... makes 'eem love/like/dislike conversation loops not happen nearly as much or last as long.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/18/2014

What differences are there in the genome? I'm just thinking this would be an awesome addition to the Treehuggers...

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/18/2014  2

Suppress (make dormant) stimulus 18 - (Heard Creature speak)

This is the major one... it seems that even if learning is totally silent for this gene, if the gene is there at all and affects any drives at all (negatively or positively), it will tend to force creatures' attention towards any speaking creature (and paying attention to a speaking creature makes them answer because it's scripted...). This is the thing that makes normal creatures almost always have to pay attention to, and answer, every single creature they can understand, no matter what else they might be doing, and what lets speech loops get so bad.

Suppress (make dormant) instinct 13 - (Shout and Swear if Angry)
Suppress (make dormant) stimulus 56 - (Swearing Lets off Steam)


These 2 genes actually may not be too bad on their own, but they are also not really necessary, since creatures are forced to express by the game engine anyway, and they can still learn that expressing is good when they express and get help with their drives from each other or the hand... suppressing these genes makes creatures think a little more seriously about doing something about its drives rather than just sit and complain.

Also, these 2 genes cause a giant feedback loop in combination with the other gene... basically the creatures can eventually start to express as a way to get the stimulus from all the creatures answering it... and with several creatures talking, that stimulus can get multiplied so much it will make the creatures ignore other drives, even possibly starving to death if there were enough creatures around to listen to, just because they like hearing speech so much... They will also start to want to express if they have ANY anger at all, not even if it's high... and since anger can often just go up constantly in a crowded situation... they will often start to not do much else than express.

So, anyway, these are the 3 basic genes to get rid of... I have been messing with tweaking a few other things, but these are the edits that really make a difference... You can just make them inactive/dormant in any genome... The effect is that the creatures are a lot less likely to get stuck in speaking loops, and if they do, the loops tend to not last anywhere near as long as other creatures...

They will think of speech as a means to an end, rather than an end itself. It can still be helpful to them, but now they can notice a lot more about speech than just the huge drop in drives they get from speaking/hearing it. They will pay more attention to the actual words spoken (so they can actually take advice more seriously than other creatures, and also can answer speech about food more often if they are hungry or thinking about food). They also are more likely to pay attention to who is talking: If they are busy, they will only go out of their way to pay attention to, and answer, creatures who they especially like or find interesting... otherwise, they will often just go about their business instead of bothering to pay attention and answer...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/19/2014

Funnily enough - those genes in the Treehuggers (Swear when angry, swearing lets off steam) are called 'Meditate when angry' and tell them to rest when they're angry. Further research needed?

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  4/19/2014

As long as those don't make them talk, I think it's fine to leave them... it's good to have another way to let off steam. As I said, those genes might even be okay in normal creatures... I just don't think they are necessary (as can be seen since treehuggers have a replacement... you might want to implement a replacement for other creatures as well, instead of just getting rid of the genes)... hardmen have that instinct made dormant already (probably because otherwise they would ALWAYS do nothing but complain, instead of just a lot of the time) but not the stimulus (though the stimulus is weakened in them so they don't get rid of as much anger by doing it).

Definitely get rid of the 'heard creature speak' one though... they don't need it to respond to other creatures, and getting rid of it makes it so the creature can decide to listen and respond based on more meaningful stuff like what they want to hear and who they like, instead of pretty much always being forced to. The only side-effect I've noticed is they get lonely a bit faster (and you can tweak the rate loneliness is emitted to deal with that if you want to)

Any behavior that is forced by the game as much as talking is should probably not be affecting drives directly. Let creatures make associations with speaking and decisions based on what they are talking about, which the creatures at least have some control over, and who is talking, and not based on just the fact there is talking going on. They are still aware of everything being said around them with this gene turned off, so they can still make associations, and change attention if it's interesting enough to them... they get the right nouns and verbs and stuff stimulated in their brains... they just aren't always being urged to change attention and respond to every speaker.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 


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