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 Gulliver  |
Hello I'm returning to Creatures after a five-ish year gap, with probably more like ten years since I played "seriously". C12DS was still "new" when I last played properly and I used to talk to Jennie (of DevThing) and Liam (of like half the metarooms out there) on MSN because MSN was a thing. I remember the Gizmos feeling more like "normal" norns, as the C3/DS norns felt very preprogrammed and too all-knowing for my liking. "Maybe push portal" coming from a norn who has never seen a portal felt daft. I've been using the 2017 CFF norns and they have the slight randomness from C1 and C2 nailed, but I'm having a problem getting them to move around the world. All they want to do is find a pile of food, set there complaining about how crowded they are because seven other norns have done the same thing and then occasionally have an orgy. I had to take the C12DS fridge out of the kitchen because otherwise they'd have never left the house. Sometimes a bright little spark will appear who goes off exploring, so I know it is possible. They like laying eggs in the Aquarium, apparently. I have a grendel who then helpfully moved their eggs to the jungle so I can move them back to somewhere where they won't all die. There was a long bout of norns expressing their like or dislike of one particular norn. Like, simultaneously shouting that they like or dislike her. A few smacks stopped that (because it was actually quite annoying). I've tried mixing in a few CFE and CFF and CFG's in a wolfish run in the hope that the mismatch in instinct genes would encourage a change in behaviour and also I couldn't find a CFF copy of the Dream norns and couldn't be bothered to download and use the genetics editor. The CFG norns seem to be happier to wander about, but that might just be confirmation bias. So... Does anyone have any suggestions to the "find a pile of food and live there for three generations" problem? Should I make food more sparse? Are norns affected by other norns expressing "like" or "dislike"? I feel the answer is probably no. What affects whether a norn likes or dislikes another? Is it just a "would I breed with X?" response? How is the evo genome connected to the CFF 2017 genomes? Were the changes included or are they something else entirely? I noticed there were changes to add more behavioural randomness. Do norns listed to each other's "maybe eat fruit" suggestions or are they just for show? And lastly... does anyone have a copy of Frimlin's words of bibble? It doesn't work on the Treesprite's Grove website. Thanks! |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
Is the first problem mainly happening in C1toDS? I ask because it's a common problem with both C1toDS and C2toDS. I forget why it happens, but it's inevitable regardless of what genome you use and I don't remember there being a fix for it. The only real solution is to ditch the converted world and use a bunch of networked smaller metarooms (Veridia, Norngarden etc.) instead. The "like parties" are a consequence of the way CFE and its derivative genomes are wired. Good to know that slapping helped, it doesn't always work. Expressing opinions shouldn't affect other creatures, except to get them to voice their opinions Now, as far as I know, if a creature tickles/kisses another creature, it improves the second creature's opinion (hence like/love). If they hit them, it lowers it (dislike/hate). If a creature kisspops a friendly creature, it improves opinion, but if the recipient is not friendly, it lowers it. Creatures are more likely to hit creatures they dislike, and tickle/kiss/kisspop those they like. (If any of this is wrong someone please correct me!) I don't know about the "maybe eat fruit" suggestions, but I would be surprised if it didn't have any impact on decision making. Edit: There's CFE Dream Norns, if that's any good to you. http://creaturescaves.com/downloads.php?section=Creatures&view=1260 |
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 Venithil |
If you're looking for Norns that behave a bit more unpredictably, you could : - Check out the other titles in the series  - Try some Norns that are clear and free of instincts. - Evo Norns are Norns based on one of the newer and improved brain breeds but that are meant to try out more things and behave a little differently from the common Norns, described as 'having their creativity amped up'. There's several breeds based on that genome. - Genetic experiments. Try mixing Norns that have vastly different base personalities and see what comes of it. To save up space and memory, there are some Norns that share the basic look but have different coloration and several types of genetics, i.e. two variants of Spearmint Norns, or six (or was it seven?) variants of Trix and Liam's Sprite Norns. Because they seek out different things and because of how the game sorts out genes sometimes you may gain some fairly unpredictable behaviors. As for like/dislike, it does seem like Norns can build good or bad relationships regardless of gender if they have a working friend/foe lobe, but some Norn relationships are... odd. I had Norns claim they liked or loved a creature that'd only slap them whenever they've seen each other. I guess Norns have their kinks, too... I document some of my playthroughs in a blog-style fashion with comments enabled. I may just change them into a blog, but if you're interested in reading such things beforehand, feel free! |
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 Arnout |
Hey! First of all, welcome back. I'm happy to see somebody try out the 2017 genomes. To answer one of your questions; the 2017 genomes are in fact based on the original CFF (and thus also the Evo Norn) genome, so all the CFF/Evo Norn changes should be in them.  I believe that Norns do not actually listen to each other's suggestions as each of them has an own set of instincts that they usually stick to. I have no idea how Norns without instinct genes would fare though, and if they actually do something with each others' suggestions. As for liking and disliking, I'm led to believe that there's 2 factors that play a role here. The first is Creatures being family; something that I've observed is that Creatures are more likely to 'love' their sons and daughters. The second factor would be slapping and kisspops. A slap-happy Norn is more often disliked (or even hated) by other Norns than one that's friendly to its brethren. |
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Gulliver |
Thanks folks. C2 only runs very occasionally on my PC. I love the look of it and also how unforgiving the world is, and some of the 3rd party breeds are among the slickest I've seen in terms of art style. But, it is too haphazard in how it runs for me. Like, sometimes worlds just never load and everything in them is lost. I don't remember the "find a pile of food and live there" problem in the base C3 breeds, but it was a long time ago. It's also possible I had them in smaller numbers - I have about twenty norns active at the moment so it might be the case that they're grouping around other norns, rather than around food specifically. I might try a bit of a world reset with a few more "hardships" thrown in. I got a bit agent-happy and made everything a bit too comfortable. Maybe a blank-ish metaroom with some selective use of the Garden box with different areas being more or less useful in different seasons would make things more interesting. My C12DS batch are on gen 12-15 now (with one or two additions when the genders were thrown out of whack). I've basically let them just go at it, and those who have left the kitchen seem to have had interesting lives and then dropped dead when they get to the island because they never learnt good eating habits (just as a guess). I'm guessing there's a sort of feedback loop that they get into when they find a place they like and don't realise that moving away would make you less crowded. Maybe a CFF/CFG/Evo run could be interesting then. Are there any badplant/weed agents out there that grow like the ones from JD's super food vendor? I could probably make one with a bit of brainpower by adapting the existing tomato agents. In C2 I had ugly tomatoes and golden tomatoes growing, just for some variety. |
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 Geat_Masta |
ylukyun wrote: Opinions are lowered and raised based on the driv lobe, so if a creature is in pain it will dislike the creatures in proximity regardless of if they were the cause. |
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Geat_Masta |
Arnout wrote: They do, luurhstap's brain edit dragons can be shown to do that quite easily. I designed the brain edits, but when i put the same ones on a normal CFF he just became more or less a left/righter. So i'm not sure exactly what the details there are. Although hooking the "it is my child" into the forf lobe would make sense, it isn't linked to anything, so i don't think that matters. |
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 Malkin Manager  |
You might like to install my modified Creature DoneTo scripts - they reduce the chance that 'like/dislike' loops begin. It won't stop the 'behaviour' entirely, but it will make it much less common. I think that the original scripts were made as a 'patch' for the social behaviour of the genome not working properly. My TCR Norns |
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 Lurhstaap |
My Dragons actually do wander pretty well in C1toDS but there's still a tendency to favor the garden area as a main colony spot. They are also specifically designed to be at least sort of wandery. Gah I want to write more but this is a pain on a phone. I'll get a new keyboard soon and then I can return to y'all.. As far as why my dragons didn't turn into leftrighters, I have no idea. They are based on CFF. So I either made some kind of fortuitous epiphany level mistake that miraculously improved the edit itself, or something I did in the non brain genes is somehow responsible. I'm honestly not sure which of those is less likely. The brain edit dragons are fascinating in part because they really shouldn't work at all. But they do, albeit quirkily. Conclude with killer catchphrase. (Lurhstaap) "This is not knowledge - this is information!" New Model Army, "Courage" |
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