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Hallucinations without 130   
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  5/12/2017

I can't upload her as an example because I accidentally nuked the world and killed her along with all other living Creatures. -.- But before I made that little mistake, I observed something extremely weird.

CFF Creatures, and any genome based on CFF like TWB, are of course susceptible by design to chemical 130. But I've never, ever observed a Creature of any of the three species hallucinate when 130 is not in their system.

There are two characteristic types of 130 hallucination. The first type is the most common and involves perceiving/attempting to interact with things that aren't there, ranging from lying still and 'looking' at unreal portals to attempting to 'hit grendel' when no grendel is actually present. This is verified not only by the words of the Norn/other creature but also the use of the HealthBar and CRC agents side by side. One agent will show what the Norn thinks it's seeing and doing - say, 'hit grendel' - while the other shows, for example,'hit self'. This indicates that the attempt at action is real, but the thing the Norn is attempting to interact with is not.

More rarely, you will see something like 'hit grendel' on one agent and '(nothing) grendel' on the other. I've been less sure of how to interpret this, but have generally taken it to mean that the Norn (or whatnot) is hallucinating taking an action it isn't actually taking. Whether the object of that action is real or not is probably irrelevant, and I've noticed examples of both on 130 creatures.

Today, I saw an example of a Norn experiencing the second type of hallucination, and possibly the first since it changed focus quickly a few times and cycled through object types like flower that I'm not 100% sure are present in that spot. She was flying beside the cave in C1toDS, the one where the cave flies appear beneath the Grendel Mother and the Grendel House. She was generally behaving oddly, similar to a 130 Norn might, also. That's what got my attention on her to begin with. She complained of hunger so I told her to eat and... it happened.

I have never seen CRC and HealthBar disagree when a creature is not on 130. But twice I saw her apparently hallucinate taking an action, as described above. I figured she must have gotten 130 somehow and opened Biochemistry Kit, but no - she had none in her system. And there's no way she could have been exposed to any unless I made a mistake gengineering (which has happened before lol) but if that were the case there would be some in her system still. And besides the hallucinations wear off quickly once the 130 has been metabolized.

So that can't be it.

I REALLY REALLY wish that world hadn't had the oops. x.x I so wanted to study her more and share her. She was just a Gen1 tester in my current crop of Dragons. I haven't seen anything like this from any of the others, but I will watch the next crop closely. Has anyone else ever seen this?


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Missmysterics

Missmysterics



  5/13/2017

It's definitely possible for a mutation to occur where 130 might have been replaced by different chemical.

At least it is with reactions and the like, and unfortunately that's how a lot of creatures are born producing pain(gene calling for chemical 0- blank/nothing mutates to call for chemical 1-pain)
In this case I'm not quite sure how CFFs are made so that they respond to 130 though.

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  5/13/2017

So far, all individuals observed doing this (and by now both Intyalle and I have seen several examples, all occurring in the past few days since the first one I spotted) have been genetically identical Gen1 tester Norns. So it can't be a mutation.

Here's what's been happening. I started working on my dragons and using CFF genomes over a year ago. In that time, I have done a lot of experiments with 130, and have closely observed both sober and intoxicated creatures. Before this began just a few days ago, I NEVER saw CRC and HealthBar disagree, especially not in that characteristic way, when observing a sober creature. So my experience for over a year has been that high Norns hallucinate, with certain signs that are consistent and predictable, but normal ones don't, ever.

That brings us up to now. Currently I am working on a new version of the Dragons, improving their metabolism and other very typical boring gengineering tasks. I haven't touched the brain or anything related to 130 at all, so nothing should be different with them on that level. But it's in these Norns and only these Norns, so far, that the weird no-130 hallucinosis has been observed.

The way 130 induces hallucinations is complex and involves edits to the brain, incidentally; I don't know how it works either. Pretty sure the only person who does is Evolnemesis (the creator of the system IIRC).



Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Intyalle

Intyalle
New Zealand  

 visit Intyalle's website: Nadia Eat Hand
  5/13/2017

I have to second this one. I've been looking at the dragons too, and occasionally spot them looking at things that literally aren't there, and are reflected as not actually being there by the health bar.

In all cases gen 1s, because the current iteration of dragons are just the *worst* breeders :P


Also known as bab_5_freak from the old Gameware forums.
 
Intyalle

Intyalle
New Zealand  

 visit Intyalle's website: Nadia Eat Hand
  5/17/2017

In case anyone was interested, we managed to work out what the issue was. Mostly by chance, but tested once it had occurred.

Basically, a norn following CAs looks very similar to a hallucinating norn, though they don't behave the same (ie, they don't try to interact with the area they think the object is). Essentially, because a CA is not an indicateable object, nor interactable, it shows on health bar with the default noun (self) as hallucinations do, but the CRC shows whatever the norn is thinking about tracking down (and doing once it has).

This is really hard to spot and isolate under normal conditions, as much of the time it's only a brief flicker of activity before they decide on a specific, nearby object to focus on. It's mostly detectable during lengthy navigation, such as that required by the IQ test (which is when I initially realised the likely reason). It is also noticeable in creatures navigating back home to lay their eggs.


Also known as bab_5_freak from the old Gameware forums.
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  5/17/2017

And in turn, that explained why I was seeing it for the first time. Traditionally my Dragons have been extremely sedentary. Mostly they'd roam within a single room. At best they'd use portals to visit other rooms. But they tended to ignore doors and to form little clumps. But I wanted them to be at least a little more explorative so I've been making edits to that effect in 3.0 And of course, with them now spending a lot more time in long-distance travelling, that meant I was suddenly in a position to observe this CA tracking behavior. That, and they now have CAs they are more able to track (the prey scent thing), whereas in the past, they had lost a lot of their ability to track CAs due to the carnivory edits. (Smells of fruit and seeds lost all relevance to them, and food scents became less important, and a lot of CA navigation relies on the scent of edibles.)

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 


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