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C3DS Organ Parameters   
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  7/27/2016

Would anyone mind defining these organ parameters? I want to be 100% sure I understand what each of them means accurately.

Clockrate
Organ Vulnerability
Life Force Starting Value
Biotick Start
ATP Damage Coefficient

Some seem self-explanatory, but others I'm not sure on, so I thought I'd ask about all of them just to be certain.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  7/28/2016

Did you check the GKhelp.htm file in the genetics kit install directory?
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  7/29/2016

Weirdly I do not appear to have that file. o.O

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  7/29/2016

Lurhstaap wrote:
Weirdly I do not appear to have that file. o.O



I basically paraphrased it when making the libfreetures documentation on organs, but quoting it:



Organs: A summary of how they work

Organs were a new feature in Creatures2. Just like real-life organs, they contain biochemical functions, and can be damaged by disease, and repair themselves. In a generation one Norn there are 21 organs, although one of these is female-only. The more organs a Norn has, the more ATP it will use up.

Just like the other genes, the organ genes can be mutable, allowing Creatures to accumulate new organs for new functions. The gene appears like this:

The "Clockrate" determines how frequently the contained biochemistry will be updated. The further to the right the slider bar is, the more frequently the biochemistry will be updated. It is possible for a receptor to speed this up, or slow it down.

The "Organ vulnerability" sets how fast the Long Term Life Force moves towards the Short Term Lifeforce. The lower it is the more resistant the organ will be to damage (see below for a more complete description of this system).

The "Lifeforce start value" determines how sturdy the organ is at birth, and how much damage it can take before it dies.

The "Biotick start" is a way to co-ordinate the genesis of organs during development, so their functions switch on in the right order.

The "ATP damage coefficient" defines how dependent on ATP the organ is. ATP is the energy source for chemical reactions, receptors and emitters, and when it runs out the Creature becomes unconscious, and the organs start to degrade, being injured at a speed determined by their damage coefficient.

Organs allow biochemistry genes to be regulated in groups based on their common function. An organ will "contain" and regulate all the biochemistry genes following it in the genome, up until the next organ gene. The organ clockrate has a locus which receptors can attach to, and so it can be regulated according to a chemical level for instance. This allows reactions to be sped up or slowed down to maintain a constant chemical concentration, and deal with fluctuating conditions.

Organs can be in a healthy or damaged state, determined by their Short Term and Long Term Life Force values. Organs can take damage from diseases or physical injury, lowering their Short Term Life Force, and producing Injury chemical as a signal to the immune system. When Short Term and Long Term Life Forces are apart, they move towards each other at a certain rate. The rate at which Short Term Life Force moves is generally faster than Long Term Life Force, and is open to regulation through a locus. This allows for organs to heal, at a rate which can be influenced by the biochemistry.

If an organ’s Long Term Life Force falls to zero the organ is declared dead, and the biochemistry it contains will never be updated again. In this way Creatures can lose some functions before others. For instance, it is possible for a Norn to catch a disease which kills their reproductive system, rendering the Norn infertile, but otherwise healthy. Once an organ has died there is no way to bring it back to life.

To increase the rate of healing, each organ has a locus called the ‘Repair rate’, which a receptor can attach to. The effect of this locus is to regulate the rate at which Short Term Life Force returns towards Long Term Life Force. In hatchery Norns this locus is regulated by prostaglandin, which is produced by the bones in response to Injury chemical.



as far as i can tell the equations for everything in the libfreetures documentation are accurate, (based on openc2e) aside from the rate ATP is decreased at, which is based on the C2 organs in the openc2e code.

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  7/29/2016

Hmm, OK, thanks. Any particular reason you're basing it on the C2 stuff rather than C3/DS? And is this information the same in the C3/DS version of that file? (Or IS that the C3/DS version with old information in it? XD)

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  7/29/2016

AFAIK Organs in C3/DS work essentially exactly the same as in C2. Same parameters, etc... The only particular difference is in how half-lives and reaction rates work in the biochemistry the organs regulate...

In C1/C2, the time shown for a 'half-life' is actually 'decay time'... That is, the base amount of time a chemical would take to decay from full to 0, or in the case of 'reaction rate'. the base (before it is altered by any clock rate if in an organ) amount of time a running reaction using one unit of a reactant at a time would take to use up all of a full dose of that reactant.

In C3, these base times actually represent half-lives (the amount of time it takes to use up or decay half of whatever is in the body) and act accordingly.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  7/29/2016

Ah, OK, gotcha. Thanks for the input! I needed this information both for GeatMasta's project and for my life-extension work.

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  7/30/2016

Well the ATP to ADP conversion is also different, as are emitters, in C1 the sample rate is calculated the same as a half life, with the emitter being run when the number of ticks since the creature was loaded is divided by this calculated sample rate, and if the number is 1 then the emitter runs. This means that emitters get run every time the game loads a creature, even if the emitter is set to almost never run. which seems to be the reason for the die-on-import glitch. While in C2 it seems to use the number of ticks the creature has been alive, and in C3 they changed it so the sample rate is just a raw number of ticks.

I used the C2 code because it's based on integer math, while the C3 code is based on floating math. A floating number is a number with a decimal point, and here in lies the problem: if i do:

print(.1 + .2)

a computer will output

.300001

Similarly, adding 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 will produce .9999999999

the reason for this is that because computers are in base 2 they store .1 as:

0.00110011001100110011001100110011 repeating

and because computers can't store numbers as repeating fractions, you just get errors like the above that build up over time and cause really weird results. So rather than trying to figure out what the C3 would be doing to an integer number, I just used the C2 code.

Also, while I say that the chemicals are numbers from 0 - 1, they're actually stored as integers, from 0 to 2^24, or in hexidecimal from
0x0000 0000 to 0x00FF FFFF

Compare this to C1, where numbers were from 0x0000 to 0x00FF, and you can see that i'm using the last four F's as a sort of rudimentary decimal system. So it should have precision like C3 while avoiding the above problems, if it all works to plan.

So in the documentation, any time it says a number from [0.0, 1.0], 0 to 255 will also work, because they're the same after it reads the file in, i just thought the 0-1 range was easier to understand.

Also: according to the openc2e code, the life force of an organ will decay over time even if there is no damage dealt to it. But I can't really say what the time period is to drop to 0.

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  7/30/2016

Yeah, that's clockrate running. Clockrate does inherent damage, or seems to anyway. Or else it's that funky Long Term Damage Rate stat that biochem kit shows. That's an odd one - there's no way to manipulate that in the C3 Genetics Kit directly, but if I set the ATP damage coefficient to zero, the LTDR goes to 0 too. Leaving the organ taking damage exclusively from clockrate, and also making it impossible to heal with a negative value INJR! Very weird. I can see how you'd want to work with simpler math. Creatures is full of oddities as it is...

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  7/31/2016  1

Yeah, basically it's like there is an invisible reaction constantly going on in every organ that is reacting away its long-term health. You can't modify this reaction directly or regain long-term health by any means, only slow the clock rate of that organ to make that reaction tick slower.

If an organ is injured (from low ATP or anything else), the short term health goes down. Any time that the short-term health is not at its maximum (the current long-term health), the long-term health starts to tend and decay towards the short-term health (not sure if this decay is also moderated by clock rate, but I think it is...) Meanwhile the short-term health may be going up through any healing going on. This extra decay of long-term health continues until the two values meet... Healing short-term health more quickly helps minimize this decay, and helps preserve long-term health.

AS for INJR command... pretty sure that can only act on short-term health. So a negative INJR will heal the organ's short-term health up to the current long-term health level, but no further. If short-term health is already equal to long-term health (which it is all of the time unless the organ has recently suffered injury), then a negative INJR does nothing.

EDIT: One more note, the speed of the extra decay of long-term health after injury depends directly on the difference between the two health values. It aims to make them meet by some fixed amount of time... This means a larger short-term injury will cause long-term health to decay more quickly.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  8/2/2016

That's not what I'm seeing. Try inputting INJR to a degree of -500 while watching the Norn with Biochem Kit's organ viewer. You will clearly see that both long term HP and short term HP jump up. If you use the X-Ray agent's organ viewer, you may notice the HP is valued weirdly - it's now showing percentage ABOVE the original max! I have no idea why, nor why that doesn't work with organs that have no ATP coefficient/LTDR, but that's what happens.

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  8/2/2016

Odd... I wish all this stuff was documented better, but then again it's kind of cool that people are STILL learning new things about this game so much later after it came out. One of the things that makes it so cool is just how deep it is.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Geat_Masta

Geat_Masta



  8/8/2016

I just found that internally, organs have a clock parameter, when they are created it is set to the biotick value, then every tick clock_rate is added to it. When clock exceeds 255, or 1.0 if you're being fancy; the organ runs and 255 is subtracted from clock. Don't know if that helps you. Let me know if you find out more about organ degredation and ATP damage, currently those are just not implemented in my project.
 


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