creatures caves welcome, guest
downloads   gallery   dev   community   creatchi   forum   mycaves
bookmarks | search | post new topic
Development Forum
old
Weird Drowning Issue   
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/21/2016

So, since nothing is ever finished, I've been working on the Abyss Dragon TWB Norns to improve them with the goal of putting out a v2.1 when I've done everything I can think of for now. A couple broken things have been fixed and various instincts and stimuli are being tweaked. So far so good. Except today I decided to give some of their organs that didn't already have them prostaglandin receptors so they could heal. I decided this was likely part of the reason their Time Line/Aging organ dies a lot, since it lacked such a receptor. While I was at it, I added similar receptors to the organs unique to the breed - the Carbuncle which holds various Abyss instincts and their special digestive chemistry, the Gills which hold the 'drowning fear' gene and the air-while-underwater emitter, and the Swim Bladder which holds the Swimmerase emitter and Sleepy Pregnancy genes for underwater egg laying.

For some bizarre reason, doing that broke the underwater air emitter. They now just drown in water as soon as their initial supply of air and oxygen runs out. They're fine on land. I see no good reason this should be happening to begin with, but since literally the only change was the prostaglandin receptors, I tried moving them around within their organs. No good. I tried outright deleting the one in the Gills. Didn't change a thing. I've now deleted all the ones I added to the new organs, leaving only the one added to Time Line. And they're still drowning.

What the heck is going on here?? Why should doing that have messed up the air emitter at all and is there any way I can fix it without axing the Time Line's prostaglandin receptor?

(And while I'm semi-on the subject, any ideas about what's killing Time Line to begin with?)

EDIT: Actually I'm wrong. I changed one other thing. In an attempt to make their organs tougher I moved some of the sliders on several of them. The only one I don't clearly understand what it does is the Biotick Start slider. Could that be the culprit instead of the prostaglandin receptors? If so what value should that be set to?


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  4/21/2016

biotick start has to do with how long the organ will live without damage... definitely can lead to premature organ death... I'd look at some other standard organs for a good value. Same with clock rate.

As for the breathing... I'm not sure, make sure the organ is still alive for one, in the x-ray... also have a look at any receptors in the organ that might affect its clock rate, and the organ's clock rate itself, since that will affect any reactions inside of it and a low value will practically bring all the organ's functions to a grinding halt (like my original alcohol receptor on the liver of CFF 1.0)

Also, if they are fine on land... what are the differences from the on-land air emitter to the underwater one? look closely at those genes... really any receptors or emitters in organs, have a good close look at them and make sure they are all hooking to the right loci and tissues and not doing anything to injure the organ or slow it down.

If you keep old versions of your genomes, Gene Compare can be very useful to look for any problematic changes you might have missed. You will want to also download the Functional developer runtime library from that page too, the gene compare and many of the other tools on that page needs it installed to run.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/22/2016

Turned out it had to do with the Biotick Start slider after all. I experimented with reverting some of my changes. Nothing happened until I got to Biotick Start. When I raised that suddenly the emitter began working properly. Which is really bizarre because the organ itself never died - I watched on X-Ray the whole time. They'd just be born and start drowning right away because the emitter never turned on like it's supposed to.

The underwater air emitter is a carbon copy of the normal surface one, only with the 'invert' box checked so it emits when underwater instead of when not underwater. That emitter is stored in the Gills, which contains nothing else whatsoever except a replacement copy of that 'panic when drowning' gene I had previously deleted. I had given it a prostaglandin receptor but I removed it while troubleshooting to figure out the drowning and haven't put it back yet.

Still having issues with the Aging organ. What's especially weird is that even though X-Ray says the organ is dead, they continue to age. I thought losing that organ made them get stuck in whatever stage they were at when it died? And giving the organ a prostaglandin receptor does not seem to help at all. Higher dose of prostaglandin maybe, or make the receptor more sensitive? Or could something else be going on here? The Aging organ has no changes to it compared to a normal TWB except that I altered the timeline for when they stage up (say from baby to child or whatnot - basically they grow up from child to youth fairly quickly, relative to their lifespan, then stay adults for quite a long time, then become old for a shorter time, then become senile and almost immediately die.)


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  4/22/2016

The x-ray only kind of guesses which organ is which by what order they have in the genome or else by the 'sequence number' in the gene description I think... where is your new gill organ and what sequence or organ number does it show when you look at it in the gene list? (there are sort of gaps in the sequence numbers of the 'normal' organs, which your new organs might have been snuck into by the gene editor... if left alone, this could confuse the x-ray as to which organ is which and kind of push things down in the list)

I'm guessing that your timeline organ is not really dead, and what is really dead is your gills... at least, it seems to me the most likely explanation of why an emitter in the gill which is a carbon copy of a working emitter would not be functioning (though they could also just have a too-slow clock rate in the gill too, either from its settings or from a receptor slowing it...) Still, were the timeline organ really dead, I would think they would become immortal to aging, and as you say these have not stopped aging. (though I'm not absolutely sure they would become immortal just from that organ dying, I haven't tested that... but from what you are saying, you also have not made any changes to it that could possibly make it die any faster anyway... which is why I am thinking it's another organ that is really dead...)

Anyway, to start, I'd set all the organ settings for the gill to be the same as the lung and pay close attention to the loci that any receptors in there are attached to. Make sure the organ gene properly switches on at the right time too and that 'variant' is set to 0 for it.

Then, since the 'timeline' organ might have been pushed down in the list, look very closely at the organ or two directly BEFORE the timeline organ (both in gene order AND also organ/sequence order) for any issues with biotick start or anything that might be killing those organs, any emitters or receptors that can cause it damage, stop its clock rate, or age it prematurely, etc... Pay close attention to any organs you made any changes to... Your issue might even be complicated by another organ entirely... The skin organ for example is usually before timeline organ in the genome, and can also suffocate them (at least TWB), under certain circumstances, after it dies. With dead skin organ, it will stop them from being able to sweat, in which case most will eventually overheat, dehydrate, and suffocate... It's entirely possible that the actual overheating and dehydration that stops them from breathing doesn't manifest until they get somewhere warm though. So, if you don't find the answer in the gill, check the water, 110, and hotness levels in them as well when you see them unable to breathe.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/22/2016

The Timeline thing is a much older problem. It was mentioned to me by people when they first downloaded v2.0 but I never noticed it myself because they kept growing, and X-Ray wasn't working for me then. Now that I can use X-Ray it's motivated me to take a shot at figuring out/fixing the organ death thing (whichever organ is actually dying).

It is very possible, indeed likely, that it's not actually Timeline dying. I don't know about actual immortality but I do know that generally speaking when Timeline dies the Creature usually gets stuck at whatever life stage it was in when the organ died and never advances without "cheats" after that. But it's not the Gills, because the Timeline issue way predates the drowning thing. And I was able to fix the drowning thing by moving up the Biotick Start slider, but the Timeline organ (or whatever one it is) is still dying waaaay faster than it ought to, much faster than all the other organs.

So they're not drowning anymore, but the Timeline organ (or whatever X-Ray THINKS is Timeline, at least) is still mysteriously dying. To tell the truth, whatever it is can't be too important because its loss doesn't seem to hinder them in any way I can detect. They still age, eat, breed, and generally act pretty normal.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  4/22/2016

Yeah, well if you do decide to try, to narrow down which organ that is, have a look at the sequence numbers (also known as Gene IDs) assigned to the organs. The organ in question will almost certainly be the one RIGHT before timeline, either by organ sequence number/gene ID, shown as 'Seq' or 'G-ID' depending on what editor you are using (I think you only see this number in the gene list, not in the gene itself) or else by actual gene# order...

I'm not completely certain which of those X-ray goes by to get the sequence of organs it shows, but I am fairly sure it is the sequence number/gene ID of the organ gene. Some organ has to be pushing timeline (and maybe some organs above it as well) down in X-ray's list, and it kind of has to be a new one that got assigned a G-ID lower than Timeline's, since I doubt you changed any G-IDs that were already set for existing organs...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/22/2016

You're right, I didn't change any organ numbers for existing organs. If any of their new organs had died though I'd expect to see problems that haven't occurred, at least not that I've noticed. For example if the Carbuncle died their special digestive chemistry, hunting instincts, and a bunch of other stuff would stop working. If the Gills died they'd drown without panicking at the same time since that organ holds the panic-while-drowning gene. And if the Swim Bladder died they'd stop being able to swim.

So to tell the truth it's pretty puzzling! I am going to try to figure out which it is just so I know what's really going on, especially since attempts to fix it that involve the actual Timeline organ in the Genetics Kit have not seemed to help.

EDIT: You were correct that it wasn't actually Timeline, but it wasn't one of my new organs. It was a TWB organ, the Skin Cooling one. Which is odd because I would've expected the death of that organ to be a little more catastrophic than what I've observed. Was able to figure this out using the Biochemistry Set. About to test a batch with the new Skin Cooling fixes - we'll see how it goes!


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  4/23/2016

Skin cooling is a standard organ, TWB may or may not have modified it... Still, glad you found it... I thought it was likely to be the skin organ that was dying since it is normally the one right before the timeline organ.

I will lay a bet that the carbuncle organ was assigned an unused G-ID/sequence number lower than both of those, so it was ultimately responsible for confusing the X-ray by coming somewhere before both those organs in the sequence, pushing everything after itself down by one in the organ list...

If you are using the official genetics kit, you can change that by editing your new organ's G-ID (select the organ gene in the gene list, and click the Change ID button at the bottom of the list)... Just assign it a G-ID number higher than all other organs... then the new organ will show up at the end of the list in X-ray, and the rest of the organs should be in the right sequence again, so there won't be that confusion with X-ray talking about the wrong organs for your Abysses when people use it to look at them.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  4/23/2016

There are three changes to the Skin Cooling organ in the TWB genomes.
1. The sweating reaction has been altered to reduce body heat instead of hotness.
2. A receptor has been added which causes damage to the organ when body heat rises too high. (this same receptor is added to almost every organ in the body)
3. A second receptor has been added which damages the organ when the external temperature rises extremely high. (this is to simulate the skin burning. I have yet to find temperatures anywhere near high enough to trigger it)


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/23/2016

I don't think any of the TWB changes are the culprit... if they were I'd expect to see similar problems with all the organs that have similar heat damage receptors. But it's just the skin. It's really quite odd.

And what's especially odd is that I was able to keep the organ from prematurely dying with a few changes (I forget specifically what right now, it's 7 AM and I haven't been to bed yet LOL). But now that the skin isn't dying in their adolescence or youth, they're a lot more fragile and easily chilled, even though from the way the organ is set up they really should not be so cold, since they shouldn't be sweating until they're overheated to begin with. At this point the only places they're really comfortable are rooms like Deep Abyss, with its volcanic sea vents on the bottom (the Heater agent registers a pretty high temperature there, which -should- translate into detectable heat for TWBs, doesn't it?) They usually do great in Hydro Norn Terrarium but I've struggled to keep four alive and together long enough to reproduce since fixing the skin organ. (Part of that is other changes I've made to try to make them wander more... turns out getting them to roam in groups is NOT an easy task! They either clump together more or less in one spot or wander off alone without a lot of middle ground. There's got to be a way to do this, but I've yet to find it.)

This is gonna be one of those things that takes a lot of tweaking to get right. x.x At least the organ isn't dying anymore though.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 


downloads
cobs
adoptions
creaturelink
metarooms
breeds
 
gallery
art
wallpaper
screenshots
graphics
promos
sprites
dev
hack shack
script reservations
dev resources
active projects
dev forum
 
community
links
advice
chat
polls
resources
creatchi
 
forum
bookmarks
general
news
help
development
strangeo
survivor
mycaves
log in
register
lost pw
0 online
creatures caves is your #1 resource for the creatures artificial life game series: creatures, creatures 2, creatures 3, docking station, and the upcoming creatures family.

contact    help    privacy policy    terms & conditions    rules    donate    wiki