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Wraparound Maps in C3DS   
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap
United States  

 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  3/31/2016

Is it possible to make a metaroom that wraps around the way C1 Albia does? If so, how would one do that?

Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
RisenAngel
Sanely Insane

RisenAngel

Manager


 visit RisenAngel's website: The Realm
  3/31/2016  2

See this topic.

To sum it up: Yes, it's doable. However, it's very complicated, very resource-intensive, and requires a really large metaroom for the best effect. The effort spent doing it is probably better spent making the rest of your room look good.


~ The Realm ~
Risen Angel's Creatures Blog


 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/1/2016

Well... how large is really large? *eyes 6000wx2000h pixel canvas...* I'm going to spend at least a year just painting the silly thing anyway and the way I drew it just coincidentally makes a really nice wraparound. How resource intensive is it relative to more modern computing power? That thread's only three years old, I know, but my father is an engineer and living with him taught me just how much computing can change in three years LOL

It is disappointing to learn it's such a big deal, though. I don't mind doing the work, but it sounds like it might not be worth it just from an end user perspective, re:the lag and all. What do you think, honestly, considering I'm already making a really huge map either way?


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
RisenAngel
Sanely Insane

RisenAngel

Manager


 visit RisenAngel's website: The Realm
  4/1/2016

Both C1toDS and C2toDS are over 10000 pixels wide, though that's taking into account the repeated areas required for the wrapping effect. If it's so narrow that both sets of cameras are on screen at the same time, there'll be a serious performance hit.

C3/DS is kind of funky in terms of resource requirement. I can't remember exactly how, but I vaguely remember someone talking about how it'd only use one core of a multiple-core processor since it's such an old game and multiple-core processors didn't exist back when it first came out. You should be okay with a high-end computer, but C3/DS might not perform as well as you might expect them to if you ask a whole lot out of them.

I personally wouldn't bother with a world wrap, but that's because I just don't have the patience for the kind of precision implementing it requires and I'd rather focus on other parts of the room. If you think you can pull off a world wrap, then it's your project: Go nuts.


~ The Realm ~
Risen Angel's Creatures Blog


 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/1/2016

Really? That's bizarre. You'd think the machine itself would be able to distribute the load regardless of when the program was made. Very weird.

I have no doubt that I can accomplish anything if it's possible and I have the resources and time to invest in it. The question is whether it's worth it - not so much for me, but for other people who may end up using it. The map is six thousand pixels wide even before anything I might do to it to make it wrap, so I'm pretty sure it's big enough technically speaking, but if lag is that big an issue and having a beefy processor won't help much, it's not really worth the effort in the sense that an end user may well wind up wishing I hadn't done it that way! :p


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  4/1/2016

I often talk about the single core issue. It is not exactly rocket science, though, I just look at the load of each CPU while the game runs. One of them jumps to full 100% load, especially during wolf runs, while the other (in my case 3) cores just sit around and twiddle thumbs.
At least that's for me. Maybe my Ubuntu Linux system is just the odd one in the bunch and for most people it works properly. Just try it out I guess. Show CPU load and start wolf mode which (allegedly) uses all CPU power it can get.

And for the wrapping effect, you basically need 2 arrays of cameras (or just 2 colossal ones) that display what is going on at the other side of the room. Cameras are one of the most resource consuming thing in the game, only matched by actual creatures themselves.


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/1/2016

Hmmm... well, the machine I'm using right now isn't the most powerful thing in the world, just a loaner using Windows 7. But when my own, relatively modern PC is fixed, I'll try that and see what happens. If it doesn't seem to be relying unduly on one core, I'll investigate using the wraparound seriously. Otherwise I'll stick with a non-wrapping design. It changes very little about how I paint the map (basically, there's a tunnel that connects the two sides of the ocean if it will wrap around - if not, I get rid of the tunnel and restore solid cliffs, very simple).

I would love to use a wraparound if it's feasible and not too costly to be worth it, though, because right now the effect is essentially two separate land masses with water in between and beneath them, whereas if it wrapped around it would become a single island in a single ocean. The map is intended for amphibious breeds; it will allow them to casually walk in and out of the water up and down a beach while providing a reasonable amount of land and other surface areas. I'm making a big tree to hold some lift-connected platforms, sort of an echo of Yggdrasil - heck, could pretend this is some alternate Albia. XD Essentially I'm trying to make a map that has a huge amount of open water like Artemia Sea or the Deep Abyss does, but that also has a moderate to large amount of above-water areas too which require a minimum of lift usage to access. Once I've gotten far enough in painting it that it looks like more than a mess of color, I'll post my progress in the gallery. :)

I'm really excited - at first it didn't occur to me to make a metaroom of my own, but the more I've worked on the Abysses the more I've wanted a room like this, and nothing available quite suits what I've been dreaming of. Yesterday or the day before I stumbled on a mapmaking tutorial, which encouraged me to give it a try. In the long time it will take to paint the actual art for the map, I'll be able to learn more about CAOS scripting and suchlike and agent-making so that by the time the map needs to be coded I'll be more capable of doing that. This will probably be a very long-term project, but I haven't tackled many of those in my life... I tend to be impatient, ADD and all that, so I often choose things I can accomplish within a fairly brief time. By my standards this is a really epic undertaking (mainly the art part TBH since the coding, though not necessarily easy per se, will still be way way less time-consuming and probably less challenging since I'll be painting all of this by hand with a mouse... ) It's going to be really challenging to stick with it, but the idea of having and using a metaroom I made myself from scratch, filled with my own agents, is far, far too compelling to back away from. So off I go!

Hmmm... the question now becomes, should I do two versions of the art - one intended to be able to wrap and one not - or should I proceed on the assumption that I won't be wrapping it, since it's not very difficult to just erase the tunnel back into place?


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  4/1/2016

Wrapping is hardly worth the effort. It was only really invented to give C12DS and C22DS "the right feel", but that doesn't change the fact that it is poison for a good performance.

If you really just want to make a tunnel connecting up, I would rather recommend some invisible proximity teleporter that just warps everything going further than a certain point into the tunnel. That'd be a relatively cheap solution.
As mentioned before, the most expensive part of the wrapping are the cameras, so you can actually see the other end and get this smooth transition. Warping objects forth and back isn't that terribly hard.


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  4/1/2016

Eh - I'm not overly committed to the tunnel concept, it'd just be cool and give a bit more space, plus it might make them more willing to make use of the whole region instead of clustering in the far ends as Norns sometimes do in large maps (I notice this frequently on Veridia and Artemia Sea.)

How would that look in practice, though? Would they just disappear from one end and reappear at the other, with the camera hopping over to their new location? That'd look pretty sloppy, wouldn't it? Better to just give up on the whole idea. Or does it look smoother than I'm picturing?

In the end though if I'm going to do that I might as well get rid of the actual tunnel and make them something like magic teleporting obelisks or something so it doesn't feel creaky.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  4/1/2016

Yes, that is sadly how it'd be. It would be about as abrupt as a normal teleporter or door.

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
Moe

Moe


 visit Moe's website: Creatures 2 to Docking Station
  4/2/2016  2

As someone who has implemented wrap-around for C2toDS I can tell you that it's a huge gimmick that's not worth your time. If you can design the room without it, that's what I recommend. It also has limitations.

Basically it's a set of C3/DS cameras that also act as "grabbers". They line the border of your world and reflect the other [playable] side. If anything passes the imaginary line you define as the wrap-point, they immediately place it in the [roughly] exact same position on the other side of the world, with inertia intact.

What really kills performance isn't the grabbing, it's the cameras. The C3/DS engine sucks at rendering the cameras efficiently. The script that moves the objects barely touches performance since it isn't happening constantly. After-all it's simply: "Am I touching an object that is passing the line and should be moved? Check yes or no. Move it or don't." It could probably move a dozen of objects a second and you wouldn't notice a hit. Though I would advise you to place it where the least movement is likely to occur, just in case.

The second problem is the way creatures sense things. If an object that a creature is staring at passes the boundary, it will be gone to that creature. Sure, they may be able to smell it if you link the rooms right, but they will lose track of it visually, and the notoriously short attention span of creatures means its likely to lose interest before following it.

A creature's ball could bounce through the boundary and the creature will just freeze and sit down like..."Where did it go? My life is over now. The ball is gone. I will sit here and be bored until I die of starvation."

So yeah... A good rock wall or other creative means of avoiding world-wrapping is probably the best way to go.

 


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