creatures caves welcome, guest
downloads   gallery   dev   community   creatchi   forum   mycaves
bookmarks | search | post new topic
Development Forum
old
Need testers, TWB Conversion Project   1 | 2 | 3
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/28/2015  5

Hello, I noticed a little while ago that creatures in C3/DS didn't have any real internal temperature regulation, so I decided to make a genome to change that. Unlike CFFS, the TWB genome is not very compatible by it's nature, so I made a full conversion of all the official Norn breeds.

The genomes are now out! Thank you to everyone who helped me in testing, and thank you to evolnemesis for creating the CFF genome which this was built upon.

Here is a list of changes present in the TWB genome relative to CFF 1.1:

Thermal Regulation Changes
- Body heat (chem 110) emitted from heart/mitochondria, stable at .5
- When body heat reaches .6 hotness emitted, at .4 coldness emitted
- When body heat goes above .6 the internal organs start taking damage
- When body heat falls below .4 organs start shutting down; starting with the stomach and male gonads, ending with the lungs
- Receptor speeds up heart when body heat falls
- Cooling functions reduce body heat rather than hotness
- Creatures can detect room temperature (CA smell 2)
- When room temperature is at 0 coldness emitted, at .7 hotness emitted
- Hotness increases body heat, coldness decreases it (chemical half-lives reduced for balance)
- Moisture in the air (CA smell 3) neutralizes some room temperature
- Being submerged in water reduces body heat directly
- Adipose tissue slows down the rate of heat-loss (creatures with an adipose tissue of .5 could shrug off a heatless room while creatures with 0 would become hypothermic very quickly.)
- Adipose tissue gained faster when cold
- Hotness and Coldness removed from stimuli (with a couple of exceptions)
- Hotness and Coldness cannot be suppressed (necessary due to chemical interactions)
- Hotness and Coldness drive sensitivity increased
- Instincts tell creatures to return home when hot/cold and drink potions if hot
- Skin damaged at extremely high temperatures (.9 CA smell 2)

Hunger and Metabolic Changes
- Fixed liver anabolic
- Hunger trace emitters disabled, replaced with emitters that emit when stores (glycogen, adipose tissue, muscle tissue) become too low
- Hunger removed from stimuli (with the exception of "eaten x" )
- Active stimuli (get, hit, activate etc) now use up small amounts of glucose and produce small amounts of activase
- Activase converted into body heat and anabolic steroid (promotes muscle growth)
- Creatures gain water from eating
- Females use up some of their protein stores (muscle tissue) when pregnant
- Females cannot become pregnant if they have less than .2 muscle tissue

Minor changes
- Disabled "push buttons when bored" instinct
- Weakened "activate machine if bored" instinct
- Norn home smell no longer makes them bored
- Pigment genes can't duplicate
- Appearance genes can't duplicate or be cut
- Comfort drive added to "got creature egg" stimulus
- Reduced half-life on 'libido lowerer' chemical (Personal preference, I want a balance between the CFE egg machines and the spread out and hard to breed CFFs)
- Slightly increased initial concentration of glycogen
- Fixed small bug in 2nd gene of the Stress System organ

Breed specific adjustments:

Magma
- Hotness no longer gained through Ettin Home smell
- High body heat heals rather than damages, threshold reduced to .65
- Creatures don't sweat
- High body temperature increases Immune System clockrate
- Coldness emitted sooner when in a low heat room
- Bones and Immune System shut down sooner from low body heat
- Drive sensitivity to Hotness reduced

Toxic
- Rebalanced immune system, most antigens give less of each metabolic chemical
- Food can ferment inside them when glycogen stores are full, encouraging adipose tissue storage
- Disabled initial concentration of antigen 0
- Moisture in the air does not chill them

Hardman and Honey Badger
- Creatures build up muscle tissue twice as fast
- Females use twice as much muscle tissue when pregnant
- Females require .3 muscle tissue to conceive

Bondi
- Being underwater does not affect heatloss
- Gains more water from eating

Desert Ettin - It is worth noting that Ettins cannot feel hot, but they can still get hot.
- Reproductive muscle tissue re-balance (see Hardman)
- Higher temperature tolerance (Hotness emitted at .72 CA smell 2 concentration)
- No adipose tissue gain increase when cold
- A more water efficient cooling system

Probably other changes I forgot to put up there too.

OK, so that is a lot of information to take in. For anyone who doesn't understand exactly how this all works, I will use a metaphor:
Imagine a seesaw, this represents the body's internal temperature and needs to stay in balance. On either side are the heat and cold from the environment, these push down on the seesaw, attempting to put it out of balance. However the body has a way to counteract them; two chemicals push back - adipose tissue and water. When the heat pushes down, water counters it and vice versa for the cold and adipose tissue, staying in balance depends on the force of these chemicals being equal to or greater than the force of the environment... but it isn't quite that simple. Warmblooded creatures are constantly fighting against their own bodies to keep balance; for example, a creature with a very high heart-rate would use up water much faster than a creature with a lower one, so keep your eyes open for any signs of a creature losing control!

Converted/Original breeds so far:

Official__________________Unofficial
Norns:__________________Norns:
- Chichi_________________- Honey Badger (the pilot!)
- Zebra_________________- Mountain (Arnout)
- Astro_________________ - Wood (Arnout)
- Harlequin______________- Thistlefern
- Magma________________- Bloom (Arnout)
- Fallow_________________- Abyss Dragon (Lurhstaap)
- Siamese
- Bengal
- Bruin
- Civet
- Hardman
- Toxic
- Bondi
- Treehugger
Ettins:
- Desert Ettin


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/30/2015

The next hurdle to overcome would be instincts.
Getting creatures to move away from places that are too hot or too cold by themselves is actually quite tricky.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Doringo
Lodestar

Doringo
United Kingdom  

 visit Doringo's website: My Blog
  10/30/2015

From what I've tested, they still get cold in the Norn terrarium (Grassy part with apples and seeds) and they get about 1 Hoverdoc unit of coldness while in the lower levels of the Desert. They overheat and die if I put them in the abyss unlike their fellow norns with default genetics but I didn't observe any organ damage, only dehydration.

I also got sahara to "Approach dragoler"



 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/30/2015

Oops lol, yeah I called my hand that when I taught them language, I guess you can reteach them.

The norn terrarium and lower desert produce very little heat, in fact, the lower desert doesn't produce any heat at all. I tried to balance them to deal with the lower norn terrarium temperatures... but at some times of the day the temperature drops right down to 0.

I was thinking of re-balancing how they deal with heat to let them withstand it for longer so long as they keep hydrated. Generally they have to get very hot to take organ damage and by that time their body temperature will often shoot right up and kill them before you can notice.

Edit: OK here's what i'm going to do:
- Reduce room coldness receptors to just above threshold 0 (only rooms with no heat at all make them cold)
- Remove instant-kill genes (body heat at 0 and 1)
- Increase organ damage from overheating
- Re-balance hotness reaction

Edit 2: activase is an unused chemical that was suppose to have been generated by physical activity. I have an idea to use it for a reaction that will trigger muscle formation and keep creatures warm at the same time.

Edit 3: Next version is ready with the above changes along with a couple of instincts to go home when hot/cold and to drink potions when hot. These are much more tolerant of the Norn Terrarium temperatures.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  10/30/2015

The devs seemed to realise that heat didn't matter and didn't add ANY heat emitters to most metarooms.
You WILL need the Moe Heater Agent, because most of the game world is at 0.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/30/2015

I turned my heater off and they are functioning fine. It just means they need to spend longer in the terrarium to build up some fat before going exploring.

It kinda makes sense that an abandoned ship would have its heating turned off in the corridors.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/3/2015

I uploaded a new pack of test creatures containing one of each breed. They are all balanced to live comfortably aboard the Shee Arc.

Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

These look very interesting, I think I'll need to start a new world and check these guys out.

Would I be right to assume they cannot be crossbred with CFFs or the default norns?

Edit:

Disabled "push buttons when bored" instinct

Would that also apply to things like dispensers? Because some seem to get stuck pushing dispensers over and over again and unfortunately not all the dispensers I've got out in my world have a limit or any decaying of the food dispensed.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/4/2015

That instinct only applies to buttons, not dispensers. If your creatures are pushing dispensers they are probably hungry, as no breed has an instinct to push them when bored, only when hungry (alternately it could be a learned behavior).

You could attempt to cross breed them. They were built upon the CFF genome so they aren't completely incompatible but many of the crossbreeds would die from inheriting only parts of the vital new body system.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

I've had norns just push dispensers for no apparent reason without eating anything that comes out of it. It's weird.

I figured that would probably be the case with crossbreeding.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/4/2015

They push dispensers specifically when they are hungry for fat, if it is vending fruit that could be the problem?
If that is the problem, my genome should go a way to fixing it for you, properly cared for TWBs rarely feel hungry for fat past the first stage.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

Food is the type with fat in it, right? I've had norns push the stove agent until they're buried in turkeys.

Maybe I should put a stove in the world with the TWBs and see what they do.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/4/2015

Yeah food and seeds contain fat, food contains the most.

I have noticed that creatures like to push things even when they aren't bored, which brings me back to the learned response. If your creatures learned that pushing dispensers was enjoyable to them, then they may just keep doing it, like a kind of addiction.

I would be interested to know what behaviors you observe.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

The female zebra norn in your pack appears to be missing one of the organs? Everyone else has two extra organs showing up in the x-ray.

I will let you know what these guys get up to.

Edit: Question, were standard norns able to survive if only one of their food drives got high? Or was it a death sentence if any of the three became too high? I can't remember.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/4/2015

The zebra should have exactly the same genome as the astro, chichi and harlequin, but I will check and make sure I didn't make a mistake.

Hunger drives in standard norns have nothing to do with their digestion and food stores. Hunger is emitted constantly and several stimuli artificially increased it, so their drives weren't really indicative of anything other than when they last ate (and these creatures have a tendency to overeat, even when inhibited by the fullness lobe hunger makes them eat more than they need).

High drives cause stress but can't kill a creature outright.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

Based on what I've observed so far, adult norns who were raised in the norn terrarium will get one bar for coldness initially upon being placed somewhere in the ship's bridge and their coldness drive will gradually gain a second bar if they don't get somewhere warmer. I haven't seen a third bar happen. They seem pretty okay even though they're cold.

If a norn says it's cold, another norn will suggest they return to norn home.

A baby hatched on the ship's bridge is in pretty big danger. They don't gain more than two bars on the coldness drive either but they will still die within a few minutes even if it's only at two bars.

It wasn't the full starch drive that killed the baby, it was the cold. The second baby I attempted it with also died even though the rest of their drives were fine.

I might be imagining it, but these guys seem exceptionally good at locating food they're hungry for. I had a norn declare that she was going to 'get seed' and then proceed to ride the elevator up two levels to where the justanut bush had just dropped some.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/4/2015

Babys are very susceptible to hypothermia. The drive if anything is more of a warning, cold doesn't have time to build up on fragile creatures before it will overwhelm them.

Gene compare says, other than appearance genes 1 receptor is different between the Chichis and Zebras which is very odd. But no organs were changed, are you sure you aren't comparing males to females? (males have one less organ)

Edit: It's telling me the receptors are different because it thinks 2 different receptors are the same... I kinda ran out of receptors while working on this genome at one point lol


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

It's possible I misread.

What warms them up? Like, is walking something that generates heat energy for them?

Also, what is it that's protecting the adult norns? Are adults just less fragile in general or is the fact that they grew up in the terrarium eating well a factor?

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/4/2015

Body fat (adipose tissue) insulates them, and all you need to do to warm them up is to put them somewhere that isn't cold, they should recover by themselves.

They can gain some heat from traveling ("left" and "right", walking to something doesn't count), and also pushing, pulling and hitting... but for creatures prone to hypothermia it probably won't be effective enough.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/4/2015

I see. I took a norn at child stage who was raised in the norn terrarium and had a chance to build up body fat and put them out in the ship and they are fairing much better than a baby born out there.
 
CeruleanSilver

CeruleanSilver
United States  


  11/5/2015

I really like the ideas you've got going here, and I plan on testing them, but out of curiosity, are these guys' changes on top of the base CFF genome? I think you said so somewhere else, but I just wanted to double check.

I don't mind them so much being incompatible, it's easy enough to just stick to a "kind" for a run.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/5/2015  1

Yes they are based upon the CFF genome.

I am going to experiment with increasing their drive sensitivities to coldness and hotness so that lethal levels of cold appear more threatening.

Edit: I dialed it up as high as it could go. There isn't much more I can do without attempting to re-balance the entire thing again (Nope!).

Edit 2: made a few more adjustments
- Coldness and hotness can no longer be suppressed
- Made changes to shiver stimulus (it increased hotness twice, stupid oversight on my part)
- Increased coldness emitted, now if you see that bar turn yellow you know they are in the danger zone

Also magmas have a reduced drive sensitivity to hotness.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/5/2015

Are the newest ones up for download yet?
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/5/2015  1

I am still testing before applying the changes to all the genomes (doesn't help that a Grendel just killed one of my test creatures [ndoh]).

If you can spot anymore problems with the creatures up I would like to get in as many fixes as possible before the next set go out.

Edit: thought of another fix. It doesn't make sense for air moisture to chill Toxics, so i'l disable that for them.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Yme

Yme



  11/6/2015

Did the Norns not have any "use" for temperature at all, or did they still get cold in cold enviornments, and hot where it was hot?
Is this simply a fix that makes them warmblooded?

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/6/2015  1

I would hardly say "simply" but essentially yes.
Normal norns could not tell if they were on a cold ice field or inside a molten hot volcano, it all felt the same to them.

Edit: Found a bug where females could still become pregnant despite lacking the required amount of muscle tissue. Fixed by making only the male gonads shut down when too cold.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Yme

Yme



  11/7/2015

Lol, yeah "simply a fix" would probobly be an understatement, considering the amount of time you guys seem to use when working on genomes. Seems like there is a lot of stuff that has to be done and tested.

If you had all the time in the world, to do whatever you wanted to fix the Norns, what would you do with them? Have you found any stuff in the genome that looked like the start of a cool idea that was scrapped?

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/7/2015

Less a matter of time and more a lack of technical knowledge/skill (this might not even be possible for modders to fix), but I would want to fix the receptors for creatures to tell time of day and seasons apart.

I can find ways around most of the other broken receptors like air temperature, light levels and muscle energy usage; but I couldn't get them to sleep at night or hibernate during the winter, for example.

As for everything else, if I run into a broken genetic system I will try to fix it. I go into all genomes assuming they work properly, I don't go into them looking for things to fix.

Edit: New fix, weakened "Activate machine if bored" instinct.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Yme

Yme



  11/10/2015

They actually have remnants of systems that would let them tell time of day and year? Makes you wonder what the game could have bin, if they had the time and recourses they wanted.

Reading what you and Evol are up to with these things, makes me really want to learn this stuff myself. Is it hard to get into, for a person with no experience in codeing?

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/10/2015

I can't code myself, gengineering isn't coding.

I would recommend getting the genetics kit, loading up a basic genome and having a play with it. Learn what the genes do and set yourself little challenges becoming gradually more complex.

That was how I learnt to use it and I think it's more fun that way, then just look up stuff that you absolutely don't understand... and stay away from the brain, I don't think anyone here fully understands how that works...


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/10/2015

My brain has gone on strike and won't allow me to make anymore changes to the genomes so I have posted the next pack now.

Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/10/2015

The norns from the newest pack have just reached youth and here is what I've observed.

- They get cold gradually when wandering out into the ship and the coldness meter goes higher now whereas it was only reaching two bars on the previous pack.

- They approach norn home when they're cold. I had one girl on the bridge who was hungry for starch and also cold. She went down to the teleporter between the ship and the norn meso and pressed it, entered the norn meso, and then went to the bottom to grab some seeds.

Question: can they smell heat and cold?

While they seem to get cold in the appropriate areas, the ettin desert doesn't seem to effect them at all heat wise.

Edit: Setting off the volcano did give the norn two bars on the heat drive for a few seconds.


 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/10/2015

They can smell heat (CA 2), the interpretation of hot and cold comes from the concentration of heat. I don't know if that CA is navigable (not likely) but I added a stimulus for it anyway to help them recognise what it does just in-case.

As for the desert it is not actually that hot. I had to balance them around the Meso which is hotter than the Ettin desert, as are several community metarooms. Also I think the volcano makes all nearby Norns hot when it gets set off, regardless of genome.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/10/2015

Weird that they didn't make the desert hotter, but I get what you're saying.

That might be true, I don't think I've ever had the hoverdoc on a norn near the volcano when it's going off.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  11/11/2015  1

If the desert emitted about .74 (or 7.4 depending on the scale you use) CA smell 2 then it would make the creatures hot.

There are tweaks and agents you can use to achieve that effect, I recommend Moe's Heater agent as it has a thermostat on the side, so you know exactly how hot it is even when it's turned off.


Creator of the TWB genome base.

 
Dark

Dark



  11/11/2015

I grabbed Moe's Heater agent and gave it a try. Even though I have it fully cranked up, it doesn't appear to be effecting them (unless their drive just isn't going up for some reason). I re-tested it on a standard norn and got the same results.
 

prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next

downloads
cobs
adoptions
creaturelink
metarooms
breeds
 
gallery
art
wallpaper
screenshots
graphics
promos
sprites
dev
hack shack
script reservations
dev resources
active projects
dev forum
 
community
links
advice
chat
polls
resources
creatchi
 
forum
bookmarks
general
news
help
development
strangeo
survivor
mycaves
log in
register
lost pw
3 online
Zurinsel13
Namiraja
OCAlert
creatures caves is your #1 resource for the creatures artificial life game series: creatures, creatures 2, creatures 3, docking station, and the upcoming creatures family.

contact    help    privacy policy    terms & conditions    rules    donate    wiki