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KAI Norn Creation Help   
Dark_Author

Dark_Author



  7/4/2015  1

Well, I decided to try my hand at making the Kai norns (norns that nurse their young) for c3/DS. I downloaded both the Genetics Kit and GeneLab (because I have no idea which is better).

So far, all I have done is create a blank brain lobe and some Chemicals that are not tied to anything. Essentially, I made the same chemicals the c2 creator used. He explained them in the readme for the KAI norns, so I though they would be a good starting point. The brain lobe, which I may or may not need, was my idea as a place where these could chemicals could, ideally, be regulated.

Here's what I have so far:
8 Chemicals-
Broodiness Increase- a drive increaser
Broodiness Decrease-a drive decreaser
Milk- Found in the aby after feeding by the mother
Milk Byproducts-Half-digested milk
Maternal Pheromone-Found in the baby when a parent is present, but undergoes different reactions than the parental pheromone.
Broodiness Echo- Echo lobe chemical
Oxytocin- Found in mother after laying. Prevents oestral cycle and causes formation of broodiness drive.
Broodiness- Drive chemical. Emitted and reduced on the mother by the presence of the baby.

1 (blank) lobe:
Parenting Lobe (I could not think of what to call it)

All the chemicals are directly copied from what the readme says, and as of now, they do nothing. I just made them and gave them notes about what they *should* do. There is still A LOT I don't understand and I would love help with. I am reading the handbook on seeyou7 and the guide for the genetics kit, but I'm still pretty lost. Still, I tend to learn better when I dive right in and try it.

Here are the (many) things I don't understand:

1. There is a chemical called Broodiness Echo. It's description says it is an "echo lobe" chemical. I don't know what that means. Was "Echo" a lobe in c2, or will this just end up tying into the Parenting Lobe I made? I'm a bit lost here.

2. The Milk chemical and the milk by products chemical... I think that, in the baby norn, the milk will be converted into the milk byproducts chemical by it's digestive system because that makes sense. I don't know how to set that up.

3. The broodiness drive. There are a lot of chemicals that relate to the broodiness drive, but I poured through the options and can't figure out how to make a drive at all.

4. Oxytocin is supposed to appear after the mother lays an egg. It is supposed to turn off the oestral cycle and form the new broodiness drive that I don't know how to make. I also don't know how to stop the Oestral cycle. From my understanding, Kai norns, after they lay eggs and while nursing, are not supposed to have any sex drive or be able to lay more eggs. How do I make that happen?

5. How do I make the milk chemical nutritious? Baby Kai norns are not supposed to be able to digest normal food and have to live on milk. Any help with this would be great.

There are many, many more questions that I am sure will pop up as I move along with this. I figured that by posting this here, different people with experience with different aspects of this project might be able to help me out and essentially guide me through it until we have a completed and functional nursing norn. Thank you everyone for your time in reading this and I am very, very sorry for being a total noobie.



 
lolitiabear

lolitiabear
United States  

 visit lolitiabear's website: Loli's Creature base
  7/4/2015

for number five you could make the milk have starch fat and protein in it.

here's the creatures wiki, link

it has many great resources and links to websites that can help you. When i was developing my first breed (which is on hold) it helped me lots. and for the milk turning into a milk bi product, you could look at how the glucose turns into pyruvate, and then, one hopes, ATP, and try to mimic that.


a cool sciency bear
 
Dark_Author

Dark_Author



  7/4/2015

Lolitiabear, thank you! I'll check that out.

Do you happen to know how I might go about giving the milk the starch, fat and protein properties? Also, how could I make it so that they cannot digest normal food?

 
lolitiabear

lolitiabear
United States  

 visit lolitiabear's website: Loli's Creature base
  7/4/2015

i'm not entierly sure, but i think you can you make the milk have certain values, by coding it to have it, as for not digesting normal food, maybe you can code them to not be able to get nutrients from normal food until a certain age. also, here's a google doc i made, it has a link to a sprite tutorial, a pray tool for making the breed's eggs, and breed making tutorial, as well as a key on how to figure out which sprites are which. link and on the brain lobe here's a link on the major lobes and a description on them link

a cool sciency bear
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  7/4/2015

Echo chemicals are markers to show that a chemical was there and/or mark the level it was at, but not actually react the same way, for example, there is a 'reward echo' and 'punishment echo' chemical, and a few other chemicals with similar effects... Basically, it allows you to split a chemical so that it can have some reactions or sets of effects that work at a different rate.

I'm not 100% on the exact mechanism for reward and punishment, but the basic idea is that you don't want the actual reward or punishment chemicals hanging around too long, since they affect learning on everything the Norn does, so they react very quickly and are out of the body almost instantly... but for other reactions in the body and brain based on punishment or reward, you still want to know if one of those chemicals was there within a certain time in the past. Their brains also echo somewhat with their actions using another chemical, so that if you punish them or reward them, they can remember what you might be punishing or rewarding them for.

In the case of the broodiness echo, my guess is that broodiness or the echo is directly affecting something in the brain, and the other one is used for reactions or receptor/emitters in the original Kai Norns... unfortunately, I can't figure out more than that... I also looked at the kai .gen file somebody extracted and could not find a trace of how these mechanisms work. Though if you have some notes from the creator those should help a little.

For the milk digestion, I am not sure... I think you can just turn off the 3 genes that process protein, starch, and fat into the various long-term nutritional storage forms, have them switch on only when they no longer are babies, and add copies of those genes that just turn milk in their systems into those nutrition stores instead.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dark_Author

Dark_Author



  7/4/2015

I don't think I can make the milk have protein, starch and fat and still make the babies unable to break down fruit, seeds, and food.

So, theoretically, what if I were to change the babies so that they cannot digest starch, protein and fat, but make it so the milk breaks down into milk byproducts...which break down into glucose, cholesterol and amino acids? Would that work to bypass the starch, protein and fat dilemma?

 
lolitiabear

lolitiabear
United States  

 visit lolitiabear's website: Loli's Creature base
  7/4/2015

maybe you can make them prefer the milk over regular food

a cool sciency bear
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  7/4/2015

You could make it so that the stimuli for eating doesn't kick in until childhood - and give the norn nutritional chemicals (and hunger decreases) through their milk for life.

I'd suggest using the Creatures Development Standards list to find out where to put the chemical numbers so that it doesn't clash.


My TCR Norns
 
Dark_Author

Dark_Author



  7/4/2015

Thanks everyone for the help so far! This is probably going to be a long term project, but I'll try to keep working on it in my spare time. I really appreciate all the answers here!
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  7/5/2015

Dark_Author wrote:
I don't think I can make the milk have protein, starch and fat and still make the babies unable to break down fruit, seeds, and food.

So, theoretically, what if I were to change the babies so that they cannot digest starch, protein and fat, but make it so the milk breaks down into milk byproducts...which break down into glucose, cholesterol and amino acids? Would that work to bypass the starch, protein and fat dilemma?



Yeah, that's what I was thinking... make the genes responsible for the metabolism of protein, starch, and fat only activate at a later growth stage, when the Norn is ready for normal food... Then add genes to metabolize milk in those reactions instead, so that for example, the baby can't turn protein into amino acids, but it can turn milk into them, it can't turn fat into fatty acids, but it can turn milk into them, etc...

Another way would be to, as suggested, just make it so the stims for eating food/fruit/seeds don't turn on until adulthood... In that case, you would still need to make sure that milk either contains the protein, fat, and starch, gets turned into those substances in the body through some reaction, or else gets metabolized directly into the bodily nutrition storage forms like amino acids, etc...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dark_Author

Dark_Author



  7/5/2015

Is there a way to search the genes in the genetics kit? For example, could I search "starch" and see all the genes affecting it? It might make searching for the right genes a little easier, because right now, they seem to be all over the place and in no particular order.

There is also the "Gene Editor" section and the "Organ View" section. The organ view section has a category for digestion and there IS an "Edit Gene" option there, but can/should I change these genes? Are the genes here the ONLY ones for digestion because the list seems rather small...I would expect more genes in this process.

I'm using ChiChi norns as a base at the moment (though I'll probably change that once I figure this out better). It makes a good test breed because they don't have any special considerations.

And...one more question. In the Organ View, at the top are the drives. The drives all have their own LOCUS...so, will the new drive I need to make need to have its own LOCUS? How can I do that?

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  7/6/2015

You can order genes in the gene editor by clicking on the column headers... Ordering by gene type will let you look at, for example, all the reaction genes together, or all the instincts or stimulus genes together, or all appearance or pigment genes together, etc... other than that, it's a little challenging to search for anything in the gene editor itself. If you order the genes by gene number, then the reactions for each organ should be together, you will see them right after the 'organ' gene... all the heart reactions together in the heart organ, all the digestive reactions together, all the liver reactions together, etc.

The best way I have found to search for things like chemicals or drives by name is to look at the genome using the 'gene-compare' tool: Open the genome in gene-compare as your 'first' genome, click 'Toggle details' to show all the genes instead of just the summary, and then copy the output to a text file. Then you can search all over the genome in text form and find most stuff pretty easily. gene-compare groups genes together by type automatically.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Ashtore

Ashtore



  11/16/2017

If you are still working on this, I would totally be interested in being a beta tester, I have wanted kai norns for C3/DS for so long but lack the abilities as a coder to create them myself! Love your other breeds especially the CFF ones I have running around now, they have lots of quirks but I like them alot better than the originals.
The only issue I have is that they don't like to breed, like at all and this is frustrating.
Anyway, great job and I hope to see more from you in the future!

 


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