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 Dark  |
It's happening with norns who aren't pregnant, though, including males. And they tend to neglect themselves in the process even if they're normally pretty self sufficient. |
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 Wrong Banshee Dragoler  |
Have you asked if they are homesick? If not it might be that they got scared, they have an instinct to go home when scared (Bamboo falling seems to create some fear for them) Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.  |
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Dark |
It might be the bramboo scaring them. I just don't get why they refuse to leave norn home once they get there. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Norn home smell makes them bored. For me at least, bored creatures tend to be really bad at thinking of things to do when there aren't toys right next to them. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Dark |
There was both a vendor and a toy with them. They're third gen so maybe it's some weird mutation. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I have a question. It seems that creatures suppress certain drives in the latter part of their sleep cycles just before they wake up, does anyone know what causes this? I know It isn't a bug... at least I don't think it is. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Hmm... It probably has something to do with their dream processing. There doesn't seem to be anything directly in the genome I can see that would account for it. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Seems to have been down to the hunger overwhelm organ, somehow. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
nothing in there should have anything to do with sleep... are you saying they keep hunger while asleep but nothing else? The organ does start kicking in normally when any hunger gets over about 1/3. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I wasn't playing with pure CFFs when I noticed it, so it might have been some strange interaction in the genome I was working on. Not carrying the coldness reaction in the hunger overwhelm organ did stop coldness from being converted to backup during the last part of their sleep cycle though. I observed it getting converted to backup multiple times just before they woke up, then decay back into coldness drive while awake; so it can't be that they just happened to starve at that point ether. It's odd. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
If it's just coldness doing that, then it sounds like possibly somewhere else in the genome that coldness backup and/or either sleepase and sleep backup were switched, or else sleepiness and coldness, an emitter or reaction making the wrong one, maybe? Were these first gens? There are several places a relatively simple mutation could add such a thing... Have you tried looking in Gene Compare at the differences between them and some base genome? "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
They were all first gen test creatures, I only observed it happening to coldness because that was what I was testing for, so I don't know if it effects other drives. I don't think sleepase had anything to do with it though. I graphed it and it spikes multiple times during sleep, starting well before the drive is backed up. I have this theory that they have some kind of melatonin reaction where they suppress some of their hunger when they sleep, which then gets converted back when they are about to wake up and that triggers the overwhelm organ. I haven't witnessed any big changes to the hunger drives though, so I have no idea what is actually going on. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Well, I know when they dream they are supposedly feeling changes to their drives... but the engine controls all of that stuff, and I didn't think it actually affected the drive chemicals, but then again it's possible there is some part of the dream process that backs up their drives while it is going on. This stuff all kind of works in the engine as far as I know and the exact mechanisms are not really documented. If it is hunger coming back or something like that, it would have to feel like a lot of it... Are their levels high at all? Maybe something in their dreams is convincing them they are really hungry and the organ reacts to that? I don't know, this is kind of strange and all the explanations I can think of seem implausible since I was pretty sure what goes on in their dreams doesn't affect anything but their brains. Have you seen the base CFF chichi 1st gens having this reaction too? "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 Missmysterics |
It really annoys me that vanilla Creatures3/DS norns are so ridiculously unfinished, I guess Creatures 2 norns to a certain extent as well,but the problems with Creatures 2 norns seem more along the lines of "How the flagnog do you build a brain anyway?" while creatures 3 was more "screw this we don't have time to finish it." |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I found an interesting bug. Eating seeds (even those designed for them like bitter almonds) causes Toxic Norns to lose their water. Edit: This seems to be a patch plant issue, regular seeds work fine. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Dark |
I was looking at the changes for Dragoler's TWB norns (which are a very cool idea by the way) and was wondering if some of the changes made might not be good for CFFs too (if they haven't already been implemented? I am, admittedly, a little behind on their development since I was away from CC for a long while) These are the ones specifically that caught my eye: - Hunger trace emitters disabled, replaced with emitters that emit when stores (glycogen, adipose tissue, muscle tissue) become too low - Active stimuli (get, hit, activate etc) now use up small amounts of glucose and produce small amounts of activase - Activase converted into body heat and anabolic steroid (promotes muscle growth) - Creatures gain water from eating - Disabled "push buttons when bored" instinct - Norn home smell no longer makes them bored I didn't realize that norn home smell results in boredom but it really explains why I've observed them pacing around norn home areas (even if there's toys??) |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, several of those look good, except the body heat one is more dependent on the additional changes like the new body heat chemical and the rest of the temp regulation system changes... As for hunger, yes, these do look like a good idea, and these genes should not interact badly with others.. The only real concern is if a cross inherited the disabled trace emitters but not the new ones... But if the hunger emitter genes are just changed but in the same place that shouldn't be a problem. Then a cross will always have either the normal emitter or a new better one based on nutrition. Either way they shouldn't starve... The muscle storage fix with the steroid being produced by working out is also very cool, and I don't see how it could be harmful... Even the extra nutrition usage from movement is probably okay if they inherit just those alone, even though they will use nutrition faster than normal, but still have normal hunger... because the standard hunger emitters already are fast enough to give them plenty of nutrition. Push buttons when bored is another instinct that definitely is not needed, especially since they can still push them at random and find them fun enough to get addicted to them... I think the main purpose for that instinct is to make it so that lifts are more likely to always be on their floor and visible... Also, at least chichis and related breeds have a very strong instinct to push machines when bored, that can probably stand to be weakened at least. Norn home making them bored definitely is not necessary anymore... it was to make them walk away from home after laying, probably an anti-clumping thing from either the Gizmo or normal genomes, but the problem is a bored creature just tends to pace back and forth around whatever it is most interested in... in this case, home is affecting its drives the most, so it is what it is looking at, and so it paces around home... This is like what happened when I tried to make the librarians spread out by making them bored with each other... They would just pace around each other a lot. I think the reason for this is that even though drive changes from a stimulus can be silenced, the source of the stimulus that affects its drives still strongly attracts a creatures attention... This is something I found out when looking at how they get obsessed with speech... ANY drive change from hearing speech effectively MAKES the norns hearing it pay attention to the speaker unless they are really thinking hard about something else (a much higher drive maybe...) even if the drive change is silenced... So disabling the 'heard speech' stimulus altogether gets rid of a HUGE source of the looping problem... They do still pay attention and talk back if they are already interested in that norn, or in the words it says, but they aren't FORCED to pay attention to it and answer it anymore. In this case, I guess creatures that are constantly getting the boredom from the found home stimulus are being driven by that stimulus to pay attention to their home. Approaching anything reduces boredom, so they just decide to constantly approach home to get rid of the boredom they are getting there. So, yeah, this boredom is probably bad. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
You make a good point about the push machine instinct. I downloaded a set of fixes which included changing the potions dispenser on the bridge into a machine and found that my creatures would often go out of their way to get to it. That instinct by default is far too strong. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Dark |
I was looking at the cellular automata on the Creatures wiki and noticed two things. 1. Number 5 is Water (bodies of) but it doesn't look like it's linked to anything? Would being able to smell the water help them learn to stay out of it? 2. Toys apparently don't have a smell. Gadgets and machinery do but I don't see anything for toys. The reason I was on the page in the first place was to see if toys had a smell because I've noticed the norns are pretty bad at locating toys when they're bored. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Water is non-navigable, if you gave them a stimulus for CA smell 5 they would still never notice it. Creatures need to have toys within their line of sight to notice them, it is an issue when creatures get bored and can't figure out a way to entertain themselves. Getting creatures to locate toys would need to be fixed with an agent/genome combination by attaching the unused CA to toys... but i'm still not sure if it would work. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Well, the instinct to push machines (or gadgets, if they have such an instinct) for boredom would lead them towards machine or gadget smell... and if they already thought these were kind of fun, they might go that way on their own, so it's unlikely they wouldn't find ANYTHING to relieve their boredom, especially those that tend to think more randomly and get more ideas about things to try... Even with the regular ones, leaving a few toys near places like your learning machines, incubators, and dispensers lets them find them pretty easily... That's one reason why I think the Norn Plushie gadget-toys I made mostly for Grendels are also successful for a lot of Norns, they find them as fun as toys if they decide to play with them, but they can also navigate to them better because they can associate them with their smell (they emit some gadget smell, like any of the normal C3/DS gadgets... of course this makes Ettins covet them also... I've had Grendels follow through doors and chase Ettins across three metarooms to get a Plushie back from them). Yeah, you definitely could assign the unused CA to toys, it would be very easy to make a script that links the new CA to toys, then sits on a timer and makes sure all things classified as toys emit some level of that CA (0.3 should be plenty). This would make any creature that likes toys and thinks of playing with them much better at finding one. The maker of the Butterfly Norns did something similar with the CA 9 ('plant smell') when they wanted them to be attracted to flowers, and made an agent that makes flowers emit that CA, which before then was named but unused in the game. Maybe toys all smell a little special because the hand gave it to them. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I tend to find creatures becoming fixated on other things near to them when no toys are around and they get bored, but even if they do go after machines, most machines don't do much to entertain them; the instinct is only there so they will push the learning machine. I like the idea of giving toys a smell but what i'm unsure about is how to get Norns to link the CA to toys in their brains. Is that something that needs to be done genetically or with the agent itself? Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
It's a single CAOS command... CACL... In the agent, it would just need to be run once in that world when the agent is injected. Then the rest of the agent would just be a script to make all toys in the world EMIT that CA... running regularly on a timer to make sure any new toys introduced later also get the smell. You can even do this stuff easily from the command line. Here's the entry for CACL from the CAOS documentation: CACL (command) FAMILY (integer) GENUS (integer) SPECIES (integer) CA_INDEX (integer) This associates the classification specified with the CA specified. This allows the linking of CA's to classifiers within creatures' brains. So, for linking toys to the unused CA 19 in the brains, go to the command line and type: CACL 2 21 0 19 That links all objects classified as 'toy' (species 2, genus 21), with CA 19 in that world... the 0 for species lets it include all species of toy (every different toy agent). All creatures living in the world will recognize that smell as being associated with toys. Now you can set all toys currently existing in your world to constantly emit this smell with the following command: ENUM 2 21 0 EMIT 19 0.3 NEXT Try those 2 commands and you should see a big difference in them being able to find toys. The second command can then be used whenever you want, so you can always make sure any new toys you introduce also have the proper toy smell. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
As someone who knows nothing about coding, that was much simpler than I expected it to be! I suppose this wouldn't be too hard to write into an agent... i'm tempted to give it a try if someone who knows what they are doing doesn't step up first. Edit: I tried but i'm still thoroughly confused... Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Dark |
I'm really anxious to see how much a toy scent would help the norns out, I think it could potentially leave them functioning better as a whole since they tend to also neglect other high drives when they're bored and can't find anything to do. |
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 Yme |
What would happen of only things that logically would have a smell, had a smell? Like food, fruits and seeds, flowers etc, but not toys or machines and stuff like that? Would it make the Norns dumb, or would they maby get more curious about their suroundings? |
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Dark |
I'd say it'd make the norns 'dumber' considering that's already what's happening with toys. Toys don't have a smell, so you get a norn that just paces and complains about boredom even though there's a toy right there in the level below it. Also, I would think norns have a better sense of smell than we do (most animals do) so things that wouldn't have a scent to us might have one for an animal/norn with a better sense of smell. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Smell is their primary means of navigation and their brains are incapable of memorizing where things are, so they need to smell where they are instead. If we were to give Norns our own, weaker abilities to smell they would get lost very quickly. If they could only smell food it would limit their range of navigation but they could still survive. (imagine being blindfolded and having to navigate with your nose, not much incentive to go where you can't smell anything  )Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
I'd think toys would smell a bit like the hand at least... And I imagine a single disembodied hand has a bit of a hard time washing itself properly, so who knows how pungent it is after who knows how long on that Ark... Anyway, I made and uploaded a 'New Toy Smell' agent that makes the link between toys and CA 19 and has a timer script that runs every now and then to keep all toys in the world emitting that smell (it should be up in the Downloads section shortly, if it isn't approved already). It seemed to work almost right away... One of my Norns at the bottom of the meso said 'push toy' and then went up the lift and to the incubator where the toy robot was and started playing with it. The robot was the only toy left in the room besides the musicola. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I used your commands in my test world and I definitely think my creatures functioned better for it... they also had the reduced "push machine" instinct, it is a good combination! Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, I like them with a weaker machine instinct myself, I did that with the Evos, and the Aliens also. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Missmysterics |
I tried Glen and Glenda, they became fat and died Their diet was pretty much food and seeds though, I should try encouraging them to eat fruit instead probably. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Dark wrote: Yeah, they definitely have VERY sensitive noses... They can smell a single fruit or a piece of food from all the way across the ark, and go all the way from the Norn Terrarium to the Meso to get to it... This is better than even a dog could do. They would definitely be able to distinguish very subtle traces of scents, and it's not implausible that there would be a way for them to distinguish some scent on toys, maybe from their place of manufacture, certain kinds of wood, plastic, or metal, or even just because the hand (or maybe even some Shee) must have handled them at some point. Also, their sense of smell really is MUCH more important for their navigation than a lot of other animals, because they really have horrible eyesight... If you think about it, they are practically blind. They can only see about 1/3 of the width of the shortest level of the meso (about 2 or 3 body lengths) in front of them. Also, because of how the navigation system works in the game engine, they can't actually navigate up or down to get to an object without using CAs, even if they can see the object they want the whole time. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Missmysterics wrote: Yeah, Glen and Glenda probably will not do well unless they are on a really strict diet where their nutrition is monitored and they are kept hungry almost all the time... their livers are fixed to work like normal again, but unfortunately it looks like the typical metabolisms just gather adipose way too easily (even without really eating fat, it can still gather just from eating a lot)... It has to do with a few factors: - Creatures have a key process that would also allow them to store some nutrition as muscle tissue only halfway done and broken in the C3 genome, which would have helped slow fat buildup. - Unlike in the previous games, the C3 genomes hunger drives have nothing to do with their actual nutritional needs, and instead they emit the hunger drives at a constant pace that seems tuned too quickly for them. - Unlike in the previous games, the C3 genomes do not use any nutrition up from activity, just at a constant rate from basic metabolism. The True Warmbloods that Dragoler has been working on already have fixes for these issues, and these fixes will also be added in some form to the new CFFs, along with Glen & Glenda's fixed liver gene. The heart disease gene is still questionable, but with these fixes it might well be able to stay... Creatures should have a much harder time getting that fat, and with that many genes helping its metabolism, it should be rare for a cross to get the heart disease gene without also getting something that will help it avoid heart disease... Testing will show. I've just been incredibly busy with work lately, so I haven't gotten around to putting out the new versions of the CFF genomes, especially since this latest round of fixes will probably require a lot of testing and tweaking. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Minor bug report for CFF Ettins, the hungerly overwhelm organ has antigen vulnerabilities that don't actually affect Ettins (they can only be effected by antigens 0-2). Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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