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Norn Torture   
KC11

KC11
United States  

 visit KC11's website: DragonClawWritings (Tumblr)
  10/2/2006

What is your opinion on norn torture?

Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)>

 
angel51431

angel51431
Vietnam  

 visit angel51431's website: the Norn Setter
  10/2/2006

Call me heartless, but I believe that artificial life is indeed artificial. Any response to pain and harm they have are preprogrammed. I don't see it as something harmful or terrible in any way. If you want to torture norns, by all means, as long as you don't put your hands on a real living organism.

But then you have to figure, any means of "torture" are rather limited by the game, and third party developments. What's the worst you can do, slap a norn around and throw it under water? Really its something that the norns subject each other to as well. Unless you inject some toxins or something.


Yes, I'm the forum [devil]... Any questions?

Rascii: You make my life difficult, angel.

 
awmanman

awmanman



  10/2/2006

the only real killing is to the Sub-norns (norns that are tests for breeds) that I do with the genetics kit.

Nine times have I been told im crazy and ten times I have accepted it.
 
Jacob

Jacob
United Kingdom  


  10/3/2006

To me, it's just a game, I mean I kill my norns all the time with genetic splicers and stuff. I make killing agents, I gotta test them.

Not really active around these parts anymore.
 
Draconorn

Draconorn
New Zealand  


  10/3/2006

For me, it depends. If I like the norn and spent hours raising it to be perfect, then of course I wouldn't kill it and would be real mad if a grendel got to it. As for norns I don't like... I love the faces they pull when you toss them around!
 
KnyteTrypper

KnyteTrypper


 visit KnyteTrypper's website: KnyteTrypper's C3/DS Nexus
  10/3/2006

I have no problem with agent, genetic, or IQ testing. But only evil hurts for pleasure.

I think it's advisable to be careful what you allow to grow in your heart and mind. I'd hate to find out too late that "As you do to even the least of these you also do to me" applies to the virtual as well as the actual.




 
Moe

Moe
United States  

 visit Moe's website: Creatures 2 to Docking Station
  10/3/2006

1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

A lot of the above is done by accident when testing. Surely no one would find pleasure in causing such pain to any creature. If they do, then regardless of it being virtual or real, in order for the torturer to find any pleasure in the act of torture he or she must believe that a creature has a sense of pain and anguish. The sounds and sensations the torturer experiences are the same in both real and virtual situations, including crying sounds, agonizing movements, and eventually watching the victim die. Norns do all of the above. Therefore the torture of virtual pets to the purposeful torturer is very real.

It is arguable whether torture, in and among itself, is wrong, as it is really a perception of the torturer. Is being satisfied and even enjoying torture wrong? Absolutely. Is it wrong to torture norns, an artificial life organism, purposefully with the intent of drawing enjoyment from their pain? Yes! Even if they are a virtual organism you still must perceive their existence as true life forms to enjoy the act of torturing or else there is no potential gain in satisfaction from their suffering.

In conclusion:

Is purposeful torture, even to artificial organisms wrong? Unarguably yes, because of the perception needed to enjoy the torture.

As for testing, knowingly allowing a creature to suffer is wrong. But whether you consider your norns living creatures, is another question.

 
Shann

Shann



  10/3/2006

It's okay with norns, but you shouldn't really do it.
I test norn eggs instead.
NO WAY you should torture a living race.

 
angel51431

angel51431
Vietnam  

 visit angel51431's website: the Norn Setter
  10/4/2006

agonizing movements? Watching them die? If what norns show as a response to "torture" is agonizing to you, then you have been quite shielded.

That no person would surely find pleasure in causing such pain to any creature - unfortunately that is not the case. Many people abuse both animals and other people for their own sick hedonistic minds. Take a walk down an animal shelter one day and you'll see the results - many animals never recover over the courses of their whole lives from abuse. Some are hopeless afterwards and are put to sleep. Or look at abused children and what often develops from those.

Don't say that no person would surely get pleasure from causing pain to *any* creature. That is naive and ignorant.

Sick minds exist. Matter of fact, every single person out there - deny this all you want - is attracted from the vague power surge they get from having their way with another creature. So if you're gonna indulge in that sort of thing, let it be artificial life rather than something that has real senses and perception.

Now I'm sorry for going on like that. But you can't say that no one would inflict pain on *any* creature. Norns are one thing, but if you extend this beyond artificial life, it is a very serious issue.

This topic isn't gonna last long with me around, is it?


Yes, I'm the forum [devil]... Any questions?

Rascii: You make my life difficult, angel.

 
KnyteTrypper

KnyteTrypper


 visit KnyteTrypper's website: KnyteTrypper's C3/DS Nexus
  10/4/2006

Not to diminish your sense of personal significance, but I think this topic preceded you by quite a while, and will likely persist quite a while beyond you, me, and this thread in this forum, lol.

While less elegantly than Moe, you've quite succinctly summed it up by characterizing those who might enjoy the torture of other creatures as being "sick minds." You're correct in saying it's an urge we all feel. But like the urge to sit in one spot and eat until we explode, like goldfish will do, most of us understand that it's an urge which needs to be minimized and carefully controlled.

I'm an RPG (videogame) fan, and I've hacked, slashed, and shot my way thru more tens of millions of "enemies" than I could possibly keep track of. But the objective of those games is to dominate and destroy the opposition. And especially when you're talking about some big old mean boss that may require hours of continuous battling to defeat, it can feel mighty good to do so. It's also appropriate, in that venue.

But a good part of the appeal of Creatures games is that whether you like furry little virtual pets, or you're a virtual Dr. Frankenstein Jr. in quest of a better digital genome, the object of Creatures is to nurture something. To vent your need to hurt and dominate something in that venue is just perverse. And cowardly, as well. I, personally, derive a great deal more satisfaction from nurturing things that need nurturing, and dominating something that fights back.




 
Draconorn

Draconorn
New Zealand  


  10/4/2006

I love norns! Cuddle!
I don't throw norns around, check my other post and you'll find that I said 'norns I don't like'. The thing is, I only murder norns who are killers themselves (it is possible, I saw a normal norn turn like that once).

 
KC11

KC11
United States  

 visit KC11's website: DragonClawWritings (Tumblr)
  10/4/2006

I have to torture and killed ettins sometimes.

Because, in my C3, there is a bug that makes some ettins white as snow, with the expressions of norns and the hearts of evil grendels. They murder a lot. So they have to go.


Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)>

 
Moe

Moe
United States  

 visit Moe's website: Creatures 2 to Docking Station
  10/4/2006

“agonizing movements? Watching them die? If what norns show as a response to "torture" is agonizing to you, then you have been quite shielded.”

Umm, I did not imply that I felt agonized by Norn pain. Please re-read the post.


"Don't say that no person would surely get pleasure from causing pain to *any* creature. That is naive and ignorant. "

I don't feel I'm naive or ignorant; I just have an optimistic view towards humanity. It is not in human nature to find pleasure in the pain of animals, or each other. We must be conditioned to it through society as we age. Noticed I also went on to elaborate on and acknowledge those who do find pleasure in it. It is just a hopeful wish of mine that we should find no pleasure in hurting other beings.


“Sick minds exist. Matter of fact, every single person out there - deny this all you want - is attracted from the vague power surge they get from having their way with another creature.”

By saying that, do you imply ‘having their way with another creatures’ as torture? Surely we all like to have control, but it is false to say that everyone has an urge to inflict pain since that is not true.

 
Shann

Shann



  10/4/2006

NEVER torture anything!
I am against norn torture.
BUT.... Antinorn did have a point with C2.
The norns were like, so dumb they could'nt feel pain.
I didn't torture them though.

 
KC11

KC11
United States  

 visit KC11's website: DragonClawWritings (Tumblr)
  10/4/2006

I have a big problum with hebe norns (ungrateful breed. >.< )

They always are acting like they are being punished.

The only way to cure them is to inject some tiredness decrease.

Now that I think of it, they might be just tired a lot. I don't know... :\


Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)>

 
awmanman

awmanman



  10/4/2006

Ettins, as it has been said, may be caused pain constantly. grendles, (in C2 at least) are very, very, VERY similar to norns. maby one of the only genetic differences between them and norns are that grendles are less inteligent, and gain some life-force and pleasure from hitting. that doesent mean they want to hit in the first place, so punishing a grendle is pointless. Ettin punishment is, well...

...pointless. Norn torture (Torture only seems to apply to norns somhow) is fairly pointless, but forced norn death can be helpful, SOMTIMES.:|
Aka: testing genomes. If the norn has a defect that makes if feel horrible all the time will make you want it to not have to live with that. but make sure death is painless.:'(


Nine times have I been told im crazy and ten times I have accepted it.
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  10/4/2006

Shann
 wrote:

NEVER torture anything!
I am against norn torture.
BUT.... Antinorn did have a point with C2.
The norns were like, so dumb they could'nt feel pain.
I didn't torture them though.



So torturing things is alright, as long as they're dumb? :/


My TCR Norns
 
angel51431

angel51431
Vietnam  

 visit angel51431's website: the Norn Setter
  10/5/2006

Draconorn, I wasn't talking about you. What I said applied to "any" creature, meaning extended outside the game presumably to real living organisms.

Moe wrote:
It is not in human nature to find pleasure in the pain of animals, or each other. We must be conditioned to it through society as we age.



See, that's a contradiction. If something is human nature, then it is quite the opposite of being conditioned by society. Conditioning is training a non-instictive response, ie., against nature.

On a separate point, dumbness, or a lower-than-expected-intellect doesn't make someone feel any less pain. It is a matter of pain receptors in the brain and the response that results. However... norns never seem to learn, so the effectiveness of it is questionable. But that again can shift how you define torture in respect to norns. Or grendels or ettins.


Yes, I'm the forum [devil]... Any questions?

Rascii: You make my life difficult, angel.

 
KnyteTrypper

KnyteTrypper


 visit KnyteTrypper's website: KnyteTrypper's C3/DS Nexus
  10/6/2006

Human nature contains the entire spectrum of human behavior. For you, for me, for any of us, there is nothing either too noble or too base as to be beyond us. Environment, education, training make the difference between what is repressed and what is accented. "There but for the grace of god go I" the old saying goes.

Moe's right about dominance. A teacher, for instance, seeks to dominate and control students to their betterment. With particular respect to Creatures, I think we can safely define torture as the unnecessary infliction of pain for personal pleasure. This removes from the category of torture all the things we might do for agent or breed testing, and management of a genetic line, reducing overpopulation, etc. What's left is "gets a thrill from causing and watching them suffer and/or die."




 
Moe

Moe
United States  

 visit Moe's website: Creatures 2 to Docking Station
  10/6/2006

It is a principal in animal behavior that nothing is done without some type of reward. But you can't possible get a thrill from causing pain in a norn, unless you consider it a living organism. So we come to the question of whether norns are 'living' or not. Anyone who tortures norns can't defend their argument with 'well they arn't alive!', because they must consider them living to find pleasure in their pain, or else it would be pointless and as I said, it is a principal in animal behavior that nothing is done without some type of reward.

Human behavior is based on animal behavior(natural, that is). There is no reward for simply causing an animal pain. There is always a reason such as defending territory, killing prey, etc. So no, it is not in natural human/animal behavior to simply cause pain for enjoyment. Humans must become accustomed(conditioned) to finding enjoyment in it. So it is not a contradiction to say that torture is not in human nature, and that we must become conditioned.

 
awmanman

awmanman



  10/6/2006

Ah, so this isent so much about norns as the human mind. I think I get it now, those who have been influanced by their lives, other people, and media in certain whys that make you belive, that the norn itself is not alive. and since the human finds (usualy) no particular pleasure for killing living things without reson, those who debate that a norn is NOT alive is most likly to fell les emotional toward a norn, and treat it like a punching bag.:|

Nine times have I been told im crazy and ten times I have accepted it.
 
Moe

Moe
United States  

 visit Moe's website: Creatures 2 to Docking Station
  10/6/2006

Basically what I am saying is that someone who tortures a Norn might as well be poking a *insert adorable living creature here* with needles. The principals and mindset needed to find pleasure are the same, thus they cannot justify their actions by simply saying it is not alive because that cannot be completely true in their mind or there would be no purpose to do it and humans, like all animals do NOT do things for no reason contrary to popular belief. For instance, if you wanted to disprove the above statement you might go out and do something for what you consider 'no reason', but your actually trying to prove a point, which is indeed a reason. ;) Now it is true that someone could torture a Norn just to rebel against the norm. It’s a reason, but there isn't really a point and I'm sure they'd give up eventually. :P (Note: I'm mainly referring, throughout my argument, towards those who do it regularly for fun and try to justify their actions)
 
Draconorn

Draconorn
New Zealand  


  10/7/2006

Torture is bad. This is a little off topic, but there were some really horrible torture methods in WWII.
 
Julia

Julia
United States  


  10/7/2006

I only kill my norns if it killed another one, i don't kill it right away though, i let it suffer.



 
Draconorn

Draconorn
New Zealand  


  10/9/2006

I had this norn who killed his mate and was heading off to get his kids but I caught him.
 
Shann

Shann



  10/9/2006

*hits killer norn* Bad nornie![angry]
 
awmanman

awmanman



  10/15/2006

I dont kill murdering norns, I just seperate them from others, somwhat like jail. I bring them food, toys, whatever, but they dont get contact from other norns/victims.
Whoa! My law is very similar to canadian law. Thats kinda creepy.
Well, I could see how that would work like that. It makes sense somone who abides laws constantly would use their nations laws to enforce to their creatures.
With the exeption of the fact im not pouring 11 million bucks into a program to ask for help on how to inprove health care instead of just giving it too the health care!!!
RRRGGG!!!


Nine times have I been told im crazy and ten times I have accepted it.
 
Shann

Shann



  10/15/2006

Awmanman
 wrote:

Whoa! My law is very similar to canadian law. Thats kinda creepy.



Bwahahahah.
Canada. xD
Anyways, back on topic.

 
awmanman

awmanman



  10/19/2006

((whats so funny about the country I live in?))

Well, The worst possible torture would probably be Hatching a norn, instantly infecting it with a non-leathal infection of some sort, the starving it and hitting it for its entire life, only feeding it on the brink of death. Not all forms of torture towards norns are un-ethical, just mean. What part of a norn make it feel so alive that some poeple (like me) Cannot treat a norn like anything other then alive?


Nine times have I been told im crazy and ten times I have accepted it.
 
TMBGoofball

TMBGoofball



  11/3/2006

I see a lot of you believe that the mindset required to torture Norns must absolutely be the same one required to torture living animals - in other words, torturing Norns means you're just as "sick" or "demented" or "cruel" as an animal abuser, whatever adjective you'd like to insert. (Or choose your own, kids!!) The argument goes that in order to derive pleasure from the act of Norn torture, one must believe that Norns are truly alive.

I have not encountered a more fallacious argument in my life (save for anything I've ever heard out of a politician's mouth).

Point number one: By and large, I consider myself a pacifist. While I'm certainly not opposed to using violence in a survival situation or as a response to physical abuse, I've never physically hit anyone in my life (not counting whacking a classmate with a soft lunchbag in 5th grade). I also don't plan on it, nor do I foresee considering it a "for fun" activity. I've also never abused or been cruel to animals in any way, and yet I find Norn torture hilarious.

Point number two: I know full well that Norns aren't alive. While they mimic the characteristics of living creatures with some precision, calling their existence "life" is analogous to arguing that one should have to have vehicle registration for model cars. In other words, the similarities don't make them the same thing. So, knowing this, why I would find it funny to torture Norns? Well, the very idea that there are features implemented in a game that let you torture a virtual creature, one which doesn't have thoughts or feelings, but which reacts in a manner suggesting that it does - I just find that funny. Artificially modeled socially inappropriate behavior seems humorous from the get-go. Of course, you're free to disagree, but for you deem me a deviant or a monster or whatever-you-will for enjoying Norn torture is like saying someone should be convicted of theft for playing Grand Theft Auto.

 
Wup

Wup



  11/3/2006

*shoves an ettin body under the couch* I keep ettins in the air locks of the ship until they die of starvation or a grendel of mine gets bored...

ps. I haven't played Monster Raannnrrrnnchhdoggy
 
Laura
Tea Queen

Laura
United Kingdom  
Administrator


 visit Laura's website: CC Chat
  11/4/2006

I've never tortured Norns. Not because I'm against it, but because I never could be bothered. And whilst I do think Norns are alive, they're only alive artificially - to me, Norns are just the outcome of some clever programming and sprites.

I also think it's taking it a bit far to brandish those who do torture their Norns with the "sick and twisted" label, or to condemn them. I can't think of any Norn torturer I know who, after they torture their Norns, goes out and commits acts of animal cruelty, GBH or murder.

Anybody who truly believes otherwise, should really put the game down and go out for some much needed fresh air.

 
KC11

KC11
United States  

 visit KC11's website: DragonClawWritings (Tumblr)
  11/4/2006

In my early creatures days, whenever I saw a tortured norn website, I wished that I could make some sort of magic spell that would make that torturer endure the same thing they made their norns endure. Now my mind began working again, reminding me that creatures was a game, and I am content, although I still silently complain about torturers sometimes.

Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)>

 
Symia

Symia



  11/7/2006

Call me cruel, but I love that wonderful feeling of torturing norns. It makes me feel all in charge of things and ahead of these cute but incompetent Norns. When they do things wrong, I make them know whos boss around here.



 
LuciaInFurs

LuciaInFurs
United Kingdom  

 visit LuciaInFurs's website: The Electric Angels
  11/8/2006

You'd be great in a daycare nursery.
Why the feeling of control, anyway? Norn are just programmed pixels. And even without "cruelty" to them they pretty much do what you tell them to.


The Electric Angels (my blog)
http://luciainfurs.wordpress.com/
~*~*~*~*~*~
"Don't you know there ain't no devil,
it's just god when he's drunk"



 
Symia

Symia



  11/8/2006

Heh heh maybe you have a point. But then again... They are just programmed pixels! I don't think it really matters if you hurt something in your computer. I may be obsessive about them, but they simply are'nt real.



 


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