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How much can they learn from each other?   
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  10/26/2015

I know norns can learn words from each other, but if say one pushes a dispenser, is it possible for another to see that and learn from it?
 
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  10/26/2015

Also, can they learn not to walk off ledges or can they not even determine where a ledge is?
 
GimmeCat

GimmeCat
United Kingdom  


  10/26/2015

Which game are you talking about? I think it's possible for C3 norns to learn from the spoken suggestions of other norns, but I don't think even they learn from observation.

Norns don't know where ledges are unless there is an invisible "ledge" object placed there. They don't really see the world, only objects in it. This is why wallbumping exists, and why it is such a difficult 'bug' to fix; as far as they're concerned, they just try to walk in a direction and suddenly feel pain for some reason. They can't learn to navigate intelligently because they have no way of developing a mental 'map' of the world.

 
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  10/26/2015

Sorry, forgot to mention. I'm talking about C3/DS.

I see, that sounds awful limiting. What's an invisible ledge object, though? It'd be nice if they could see ledges and learn not to walk off them all the time.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/26/2015

Funnily enough they have a receptor function for approaching ledges but it's unfinished. Their genomes are a bit rushed in places.

Just one more tweak before bed...

 
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  10/26/2015

Man, I wonder what they would have been like if everything had been completed.
 
GimmeCat

GimmeCat
United Kingdom  


  10/26/2015

The invisible ledge object is just that: an object with no sprite, so we can't see it. The game designers placed these at the appropriate spots on the map where floors end in a drop. Norns can see it, and when they look at it the game injects some fear and stimulates their brain receptors to 'retreat from object'.

In C2, this mostly just causes Norns to fixate on the ledge and become permanently terrified until something else catches their interest. For this reason, I always delete these using a CAOS script, and block the ledges by altering the room properties (my patch called "Better Albia" in the metaroom category does this).

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  10/26/2015

The closest to learning from observation they get is when they express a drive and get a suggestion from another creature on how to fix it... they do actually get a thought to try that thing, and unless they have some other idea they like a lot more, they will be likely to try it.

Also, even when the pointer is not in training mode, they will hear the noun of anything nearby that you click on... Whenever you click on an object it tends to draw their attention to it.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
punkmogwai

punkmogwai
United States  


  10/26/2015

I remember noticing a long time ago that in C3 by itself (no DS), norns will always listen to the suggestions of other norns, but in DS it seems like they never do. I have no idea why, or if it's different with certain genomes or what, but yeah, my DS norns seem to ignore other norns' suggestions 99% of the time
 
Dark

Dark



  10/26/2015

Interesting. I have noticed that they tend to try things if you click on them with the hand (like a toy or dispenser).
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  10/26/2015

Hmm, I never noticed that difference between c3 and ds... I think it's probably genetics related... CFEs(and CFF since they are based on them) can be quite stubborn about listening sometimes if they have something they really want to do instead, and they can get pretty strong individual preferences, while non-CFE creatures tend to forget everything except base instincts so don't get quite as stubborn in their ways.

If there really IS a difference between the same breed in the 2 games, though, then maybe it is a difference in how the game engine processes their brains. It might even be related to that pesky obsession thing that they seem to get in DS but not C3.

As for clicking things... yeah, it works pretty well with toys, I especially like the balls for that reason, you can click them to play ball with a creature, and it keeps them watching the ball a little more and playing with you, because you are clicking it to bounce it back. Dispensers and learning machines are good to click also to get their attention on them... Most already have an instinct that machines are interesting to activate, so if you can get them to look at it, they will probably mess with it.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler
United Kingdom  


  10/26/2015

I think that the CFE versions of the C3 breeds are built upon the expressive version of the genomes, so that might have something to do with it. Assuming you are comparing CFEs to other CFEs or CFFs to CFFs and not CFEs to the base genomes etc.

Just one more tweak before bed...

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis
United States  


  10/26/2015

Did the expressive genomes really change behavior? I thought they were just fixes to let their mood-based facial expressions and/or gaits work, but I pretty much never used the earlier genome, so I don't really know.

"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
NoxTheNorn

NoxTheNorn



  11/30/2015  1

I think it is possible for C3-DS Norns to learn from observation. I say this based on my experience of watching groups of C3-DS Norns which I've raised in complete isolation from the HLM -- I install Veridia, which has no direct connection to the Capillata in DS but which has a lot of space for norns to run around in, and then ferry eggs there via the Inventory cabinet before they can hatch. I give each member of the first generation the entire vocabulary by means of the Vocabulizer agent, see to it that they know how to feed and play properly, and then I leave them to their own devices to see how well they manage to raise their offspring.

The results have routinely been very encouraging. Not only do most of the offspring succeed in learning most of the correct vocabulary from their parents (except for abstract concepts such as emotions and qualifiers, since they have no direct point of reference for these words in the same way that they do with concrete terms), they also manage to feed themselves adequately and keep themselves amused without much prompting. This suggests that they're either learning by observation or taking suggestions from other norns since the parameters that I've set up make it impossible for them to do it any other way (once I've given the first generation their vocabulary, I put the Vocabulizer in the inventory so that the offspring can't use it).

I've even seen norns pick up behaviors from me. On one occasion, I bounced a ball against the wall of the metaroom a couple of times to get a norn's attention...then she picked it up and started bouncing it against the wall so that it would come back to her. She kept that up for about a minute. I thought that was interesting...it was certainly unexpected.


 
veevveeeza

veevveeeza
United States  

 visit veevveeeza's website: no website
  6/19/2018

Yeah c3 norns can learn and observe
Ive had 2 norns talk to eachother one with full vocab and the other with none.
Suddenly the one without vocab said something like "Me extremely ??"
I wish i could of known what screenshot was back then


Veevee exmily boop!


 


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